Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Tottenham area map needed
Hi all. I'm researching for an article about the joys of Tottenham life (a fun task at the moment!) and am repeatedly coming up against issues of what is and isn't in Tottenham, presumably due to the tendency to call places by other names due to the area's rap.
Can anyone point me towards a simple map marking out the true boundaries? I have always thought that Tottenham took in a lot of smaller areas that were referred to by other names but don't want to get this wrong by just going on my own local 'instinct' on this one - and even Wikipedia is a little contradictory. Is there a google map that could help me?
thanks all!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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Try this map crowdsourcing page [as long as it's not research for a Daily Mail/Northcliffe Tottenham People site! ;o) ]. Anyone can edit. I've started things off with a probably provactive begining and since I'm no expert will leave my input there.
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Permalink Reply by Lesley Ramm on
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I understood that Tottenham only consists of postcodes N15 and N17 and those boundaries should be clear on postcode maps. But perhaps i am wrong?
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I think all of Tottenham is within those codes, but it's rarely so neat that neighbourhoods correspond exactly to postcode boundaries.
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Permalink Reply by Abi on
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I was under the impression that some of N22 was also included - isn't, for example, Noel Park technically in Tottenham or is it Wood Green - is Wood Green itself outside it? Oddly, and I'm not sure if others have noticed this phenomenon, I have found that the friends of mine who live around this area who would previously have called their area by some other name have started saying they live in Tottenham SINCE the riots. Is there a certain pride creeping in perhaps?
Also a lot of N15 is South Tottenham and a bit of Stamford Hill which I am not sure whether is being included when people talk about 'Tottenham' - as a resident I would say not - I live at the Southernmost end of it and never spend any time in what I'd personally call Tottenham proper (around the high street I guess; I'd shop in Harringay if I'm going local) - so don't feel like I live in Tottenham - and that's not just because I might want to sell!
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I think that's maybe a way to think about it, Abi. There's 'Tottenham proper' which corresponds with the historical village/town of Tottenham, then there's the area which corresponds to the old manorial area, latterly (and somewhat different to the historical area) the parliamentary constituency.
I can't really think of any other area of London where a neighbourhood corresponds to an old manorial territory/parliamentary constituency. So, if it were me, I'd focus on 'Tottenham proper'. Tottenham manor, for me, is as of little use as Hornsey (more usually referred to in the historical records as Harringay) manor. I'd go with neighbourhoods and modern boroughs.
Very few people identify strongly with a parliamentary constituency or council ward. Indeed many find the boundaries arbitrary, drawn as they are to satisfy the Electoral Commission's priorities.
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That's the old borough of Tottenham, or rather the parliamentary constituency, Julie. I imagine that Abi is after the neighbourhood of Tottenham. The boundary you show includes West Green, Harringay and other neighbourhoods. In the same way, Hornsey & Wood Green constituency includes, Hornsey, Crouch End, Muswell Hill. Wood Green etc. I can't see any benefit lumping the neighbourhoods together in either constituency.
It would be a very rare constituency that corresponded to a single neighbourhood.
Most people tend not to identify with parliamentary constuencies on the whole but with neighbourhoods.
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Permalink Reply by Julie on
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I'm not sure such a thing exists outside of individual interpretation. Londoners have always been very elastic with such things, depending on who they want to impress, and in what ways!
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Not sure what you mean, Julie. What "such a thing" did you mean?
Do you think neighbourhoods don't exist? You seem only acknowledge parliamentary constituencies?
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Muswell Hill, Wood Green, Crouch End and Hornsey are actually quite elastic terms when they are not directly applied to shopping areas or marked by things like stations. London residents will often choose their own label for where they live for reasons of their own.
I've honestly never heard anybody say they lived in 'West Green' apart from an elderly neighbour who remembers when there was a West Green Station at the top of Black Boy Lane, right by West Green Common. Maybe it's a shame it's not more widely used but I wouldn't want anybody to accuse me of being ashamed to live in Tottenham. I'm very proud of the place.
Though residents of the ward of Harringay have done a splendid job of defining themselves as a neighbourhood, (and even that has extended to parts of St Ann's and Stroud Green) it has been a conscious attempt to put a label on a nice area with its own character.
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I agree Julie. It's a real shame that West Green isn't given more of an identity. 200 years ago it was bigger than Wood Green. But, setting the history aside, there can be real benefits to the neighbourhood of people taking more pride in its identity. You can still feel a part of whatever else you want. If the local people decide, they can even make the link with old Tottenham Manor a key part of their neighbourhood's new identity.
As for Harringay, no one's defined anything new. Look in any newpaper archive prior to 1965, and you will find plenty of references to Harringay. Every single one means just one thing, the area both sides of Green Lanes.
It seems that Harringay people have been clear on this for longer than most of us have lived. Here's how one author writing exactly eighty years ago put it:
Altogether, Harringay may be described as a bright and cheerful suburb.In possessing an individuality of its own it does not differ from any other suburb.
At Harringay, Green Lanes becomes a Grand Parade with solid shops and good-looking shoppers. Harringay seems to be mildly prosperous. It stands between the showy and the ignoble. Its note is bright respectability, in pleasant contrast to the flat respectability of Hampstead and St. John's Wood.
One thing I like about Harringay, and that is the example in local patriotism that it sets to other suburbs. Half of it belongs to Tottenham borough, the other half to Hornsey borough, the boundary line intersecting a dozen short roads of villas.
But do you think the inhabitants of those villas will rank themselves with those of Tottenham or Hornsey? Not likely. They are of Harringay. The guide-book was right: it is a suburb with a distinct individuality of its own.
No modern labelling here Julie. Whilst we don't have the pedigree of West Green, Harringay has been around as a neighbourhood for approaching 150 years.
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Permalink Reply by Claudia Clare on
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Hmm, having had a google about myself - I just wanted to check parishes - and read the replies below and had another think about your question, I think this elasticity on what is and isn't Tottenham may have to be part of the substance of your article. It seems to me that what constitutes a neighbourhood probably is, in large part, a matter of narrative rather than empirically provable mapping. I know I tend to think of Tottenham as being N15 and N17 - ish but I dont even know where the postcode boundaries are. Try asking an estate agents - just for the sheer hell of seeing what verbal gymnastics they come up with to avoid telling anyone that such and such a property is in Tottenham. Seem to remember I was told my flat was in Bruce Grove. It's in Tottenham, which includes BG - but I'm a mere stone's throw from 'The Farm,' and 'The Farm,' is, inescapably, Tottenham.
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