Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Tottenham riot ... 'absolutely manic'
Tags for Forum Posts: london troubles
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on
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You might think that because I'm a long way away that this all leaves me cold.. My parents lived on Lansdowne Road in the early 1970s and I know that area very well. This building is was one of the gems on Tottenham High Road. And I could tell some funny stories about standing on that corner.
No doubt it will now be replaced by a second rate block of flats - that is of course, if anyone would want to live here after all this.
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Permalink Reply by matt on
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I'd say the salesmen and investors of the mega Tottenham Hale housing development will be a little worried too.
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Permalink Reply by Katy Mendes on
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It was only a couple of months ago I was reading about Tottenham's vibrancy and character (can't remember the paper now) and thought to myself that things were clearly changing for the better. So terribly sad that one weekend can put the area back, well who knows, decades?
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The government has told us 'not to worry' about the £300m spent so far on the war over in Libya as the money comes from a 'special fund'. Now, I think the government can pull out a few tens of millions to repair buildings & services to Tottenham ... from a 'special fund'. Haringey Council after all tells us it has no money. That community needs to be put back on a sure footing quickly and decisively. Oh and maybe the council can reconsider closing down the youth services.
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I have spent the whole day in a state of shock and I feel really bereft and speechless. I can't help thinking that once again Haringey is in the press for all the wrong reasons and wondering how so few can ruin it for so many. Seeing women looting with their children is beyond despicable. I don't think you can go any lower than that. Surely Haringey's social services should take a very close look at those images.
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Matt- this is a really good idea. They should also spend a lot of money identifying and pursuing these idiots, prosecute and put them to work on restoring the community and who knows they may then feel it is their community if they have done an honest day's work. A message must be sent out that this kind of behaviour should not be tolerated, but my guess is that as this is not Central London it will be ignored once the press has gone away. London/UK wide this is just blackening Haringey's reputation a bit more.
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Permalink Reply by John D on
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It's a strange world - a man kills another man in North London and the locals tut a bit.
A policeman kills a man in North London and the locals take the place apart.
Why the difference ?
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BREAKING NEWS (from The Guardian News Blog, see 7:35pm entry);
Initial ballistics tests on the bullet that lodged in a police officer's radio when Mark Duggan died on Thursday night show it was a police issue bullet, the Guardian understands.
The Guardian's crime correspondent, Sandra Laville, reports:
The revelation will fuel the fury in Tottenham about the killing of Mark Duggan by armed officers.It also undermines suggestions that there was an exchange of fire between Duggan and the police before he died.
The bullet which was found lodged in the radio of one of the officers at the scene is still undergoing forensic tests. But reliable sources have said the first ballistics examinations suggested it was a police issue bullet.
These are very distinct as the Metropolitan Police uses dum dum type hollowed out bullets designed not to pass through an object.
The early suggestion from the IPCC was that the Met officers had returned fire after someone in the minicab opened fire. But the result of the ballistics early test suggests both shots fired came from the police.
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Permalink Reply by William Booth on
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My initial thoughts, copied from my blog:
We're starting to get a bit closer to the real story of the Duggan arrest now, aren't we? I don't know about anyone else, but since the de Menezes case my initial reaction to any story of a member of the public* killed by police is that the initial version will be complete obfuscatory rubbish, and so it has proved. Regardless of Duggan's background there is no excuse for extra-judicial killing (no, not even for Osama bin Laden in my opinion). If it turns out that is what happened then there are yet another series of awkward questions for CO19 to answer. And presumably another convoluted and ham-fisted whitewash to prepare.
I imagine that most of the people protesting outside the police station had similar qualms about the spin-and-BS Met party line and that's what underpinned the resentment specifically towards the police. Most of the news coverage has attempted to give a single narrative which goes killing -> legitimate protest -> violent looting by outsiders. Actually there is a missing step, which is that the local protest turned violent when the police got too heavy-handed. This is being left out of most mainstream media accounts but has at least made it into a few places (Guardian live blog for example).
As others have pointed out though, there is clearly a hell of a lot of resentment towards government/authority/wealth more generally in our area and that is what allows incidents like looting and vandalism to spread so far and so fast. Remember the mini-riot when that nightclub in Wood Green was shut down not that long ago? All the warnings about youth service cuts? It is patently untrue that young people in Tottenham, Edmonton, big parts of Enfield, Wood Green etc. have equal life/happiness opportunities to those in other parts of the borough, let alone other parts of the country. Until there are things done about that (and on a big scale) the area will always be a tinderbox.
I feel really sad for the local businesses and residents affected (and restitution/community service should focus on these), but I'm not going to shed a tear over a few (totally insured, I suspect) clothes or shoes or TVs when there are still plenty of questions to be asked about a) the killing that led to all of this and b) the structural reasons why there are hundreds (thousands?) of young people with nothing better to do than destroy their "own" area of a weekend. I think maybe a clue is in the fact that they don't feel any connection or loyalty to (for example) Tottenham Hale retail park, or Allied Carpets, which doesn't surprise me a great deal. 'Community spirit' is something of a scarce resource in big chunks of the borough. It can't just come from within (and without stimulus).
This is not simply a case of 'bad people doing a bad thing', and it's dangerously lazy to think so. There's lots going on here, and broad brush condemnation won't help us either move beyond these upsetting events or, more importantly, prevent them happening again in the future.
A somewhat separate issue is the policing which I have a number of huge problems with. The whole thing (especially Act II in Enfield last night) seems stage-managed to a deeply cynical extent. At a time when (finally) the police are threatened with cuts, it is certainly in their interests to have trouble kick off in poor parts of London in order to prove their worth. 'Honeytrap' might be going a bit far, but it's the right line of thought I reckon.
*And yes, "gangsters" are members of the public too. If this man even was one, whatever one actually is.
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Permalink Reply by Anette on
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I am not surprised at the riots either, but for entirely different reasons. The concept of law and order has gone out the window. Respect for authority does not seem to exist anymore. A whole generation is growing up feeling they’re entitled to everything without lifting a finger to earn it. The concept of working hard to earn rewards does not come into it. There’s a culture of grab what you can and sod the consequences. Because it’s so unlikely there’ll be any. That’s what we saw an example of this week-end. These people know full well that the repercussions will be zero to none. They have ruined people’s lives and livelihoods out of sheer greed and selfishness. The police are facing spending cuts. Let this be an eye opener, do not cut police funding, we need them! And we need more of them.
I also despair of people like William Booth, who seems to want to blame everything on the police. Enough of the conspiracy theories! The police stopped a mini cab with a known criminal in it. We are unclear on how he got shot, but it’s extremely unlikely that he was shot just because a police officer felt like it. Stop and think for a minute. Police officers put their lives on the line on a regular basis. They’re humans. And they’re not killing people for fun.
What would have happened if a police officer had been killed instead of Duggan? Next to nothing. His family and friends would have been devastated. End of. The criminals would have celebrated killing a copper. Why this seemingly public outrage after the Duggan incident? He is referred to in the media as a “father of four”. Which makes him sound like a saint living behind a white picket fence. Which is so far from the truth. Even his friends admitted he was involved in criminal activities, but the media seems to conveniently forget that. “Gangsters are members of the public too”. What kind of a statement is that? I have a huge problem with getting my head round the current culture of protecting the criminals and not the victims. Honest, hard working shop owners are more valuable members of a community, if we are to roll with that particular argument. They have not chosen to live by the sword, and certainly do not deserve to die by it, business or otherwise. Nor had, in all likelihood, the poor people who lost their homes in Tottenham this week-end. What about them? Are they not valuable members of the community? People who contribute, work, and make up the back-bone of a community. What rights do they have? They’re the people who needs protecting from people like Duggan. His family are understandably upset, but his “career path” was his choice. No-one else’s. He chose to join a “profession” where violence and illegal firearms are commonplace. And probably knew the risks.
The lootings that happened over the week-end were not “stage managed” by the police. Nor were they “honey traps”. They were copycat acts set up by greedy opportunists, and the police reacted. The timing is admittedly quite good, and highlights the need for more police funding rather than cuts. But to suggest that the police provoked the crown in Tottenham to get more funding is absurd. The police got a bit too “heavy handed” for the crowd, did they? Boo-hoo! What were they meant to do with a mob running riot? Politely ask them to stop? This is another problem. The police cannot touch anyone or do anything for fear of being prosecuted. This undermines their authority and makes their job even harder. Especially when dealing with people who have been brought up to not respect anyone or anything, including themselves.
Closed youth clubs? Poor lambs not having anything to do other than rob because they’re bored? There’s plenty of free activities in London, they just have to look around a little and make an effort. But I guess that’s too much to ask. I am sick sick sick of society being blamed for everything, removing responsibility from individuals.
If there’s any justice left at all we should see plenty of bored youths in orange jump suits doing community service to clean up the mess they’ve created as well as paying back to the businesses they have ruined. And if anyone mentions humiliation and breech of their human rights I will SCREAM!
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I can see we have diametrically opposed views so am not going to labour the point. However, I didn't blame everything on the police at all. I think they handle this stuff pretty badly and are being opportunistic with the PR, definitely, but the underlying causes are socio-economic. Do you really expect kids on crumbling, poorly-connected estates with no money and (often) one overworked parent to be innovative self-motivators who hop on the tube (after a long bus ride) to embroidery classes and violin lessons? Sounds like it. Listen to the (very articulate) local kids here talking about gangs - it's not nearly as much of a choice as you say: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/video/2011/jul/31/haringey-youth-...
And I have to say, this is priceless:
"the police cannot touch anyone or do anything for fear of being prosecuted"
Quite literally one of the most absurd things I have ever read. If you had put *teachers* it might just about make sense. Have you really not read or heard about the number of people who die in police custody or in 'public order' incidents? How many have been injured peacefully protesting only in the last few months? And how many police are disciplined for that? A tiny, tiny number. Very bizarre viewpoint, even for a rampant authoritarian!
The "mob" weren't "running riot" until the aptly named riot squad weighed in. Incompetence or provocation, I don't know, but this idea that we have to be somehow grateful to the police for "putting their lives on the line" is baloney. It's a job like any other and they are *very* well remunerated. As a police officer recently told me "we're paid far too much for what we do... it's why we don't question it".
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