Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Sandero
I don't get it.
From the Haringey planning page it seems they put an application to convert a travel agents into a coffee shop and install a new extractor flue in the private yard at the back. The application is refused. So what do they do? Convert the travel agent AND the rear yard into a restaurant complete with seats, tables and (natch) smoking in the rear yard.
Anyone know what is going on here?...
From the Haringey planning page it seems they put an application to convert a travel agents into a coffee shop and install a new extractor flue in the private yard at the back. The application is refused. So what do they do? Convert the travel agent AND the rear yard into a restaurant complete with seats, tables and (natch) smoking in the rear yard.
Anyone know what is going on here?...
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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This is re 434 St Ann's Road, I take it.
You're right the application was refused. If they've gone ahead anyway, you should report it to enforcement.
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Permalink Reply by 1m6bbbx2b1h9p on
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I'm pretty concerned about this. Planning was refused, then appeal was lodged and eventually granted. This seems to mean that local people just don't have chance to object since appeals don't show up on the council website. So, unless you follow the planning application right from the start (it was refused ages ago) and keep asking the council for information in case there is any, you won't even know there's been an appeal.
Secondly, the appeal was granted on the condition that the rear yard be used for garbage collection. As you say Paulie, it's now a large outdoor bar.
Finally, they have now applied for a live and recorded music licence from 10am - 11:30 pm 7 days a week. That's music, on the street, legally being played all day every day - and local residents haven't had chance to object properly.
If you live on glenwood road like me - please get in touch with the council before 23rd August which is the licence objections deadline.
A nice quiet restaurant on the corner is great. A loud, all day every day bar playing music on a quiet residential street is NOT. Please could other concerned people get in touch with the council about this.
planningcustomercare@haringey.gov.uk - for the planners
licensing@haringey.gov.uk. - for the licence people
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We're really concerned also as the noise is already a problem, let alone with live music
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Austin,
I'm not sure that I'm clear what you're referring to.
1. Are you talking about Sandero at 434 St Ann's Road?
2. If so I can trace only two planning applications for that property using Haringey's online search facility; one in 2007 and another in 2009. Both of these show as having been refused.
Since I could find no trace of an appeal, I made a quick call to the Council for you. Their records are showing the appeal as undecided. However, whilst on the phone with them, I checked the case on the Planning Inspector's website and you're right the appeal has been allowed. On a skim read I can only see mention of restrictions of use re extraction and parking. (Copy attached).
I'm not in any way qualified to know if the use of the outside area is in contravention of the decision, but strongly suspect this use isn't within the current planning permission.
Consequently this is now a matter for enforcement.
As to the longer-term question you ask, as things stand, the only way of keeping abreast of planning applications is to stay vigilant. We do our best here by publishing the borough's full planning applications list every week. Then, if you object to an application you will be kept up to date automatically by the Council - or you should be.
Licensing is tougher, since the licensing team refuse to issue weekly updates and only publish applications online and in the weekly press. - Attachments:
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434 St Anns' .pdf, 111 KB
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Sorry Hugh - yes this is re. 434 St Ann's. Thanks for looking at it. This website is actually a great way of keeping an eye on this kind of thing too - appreciate it.
But yes - I do check the council website for planning applications. My concern was that you can't search for appeals; you have to call the council as we both did. Nor can you see whether an appeal has been lodged for a particular planning application. So, it is very easy to see "refused" on an application and assume that's the end of it; it isn't. In this case the application was marked "refused" in 2009 (as you say). But there was an appeal process going on which was not apparent to the public. The lesson is to call the council for updates even a couple of years following a planning refusal if you're concerned about possible appeals.
My main worry is with the new outdoor live music venue which seems to have come out of all this. It's nice to hear at least one other person is concerned Jemma - thanks. I hope you'll email the council too - the more people who do the better.
I have emailed the council about this to ask what's going on. To recap, we have until 23rd August to object to the licence for live music, music and alcohol sales. Objecting to a licence is not easy though and the real issue is with the planning. The council are aware that a bar has been built at the rear but have thus far taken no action. I will let you know what they say about this when they reply.
Re. the planning appeal notice you attach: I got the same one a couple of months ago. It sounds like the appeal was granted on the basis that suitable waste storage could be found (presumably at the rear where the bar now is) and that delivery trucks could park off street (again - where the bar now is). But the planning inspector says specifically that the presence of the bar at the rear was not considered on his visit. He ignored it.
I'm worried about the licence being granted and lack of objection about it being taken as precedent for allowing the open air bar to stay.
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I recommend you contact enforcement directly and get them on the case asap.
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Oh boy, I too had thought that all would be ok as permission had been refused. I am appalled that we might be subject to live music in the covered area to the rear of the property.
I have spoken to the appeals inspectorate who say that the outside area was not considered in the appeal as it was not part of the initial planning application. As frustrating as this is, at least it means that the covered outside area does not have planning permission. It was not on the original plans. This may provide a basis for complaint against any licences sought by the restaurant.
How do residents object to licence applications. Does any one know of an application reference ?
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Residents can object to licence applications on one of four grounds.
1-Public Safety
2-Protection of children from harm
3- Public nuisance
4-Prevention of crime.
Any objection must state on which grounds it objects and why. In this case Public nuisance due to noise, given that the rear area has no walls.
Objections must be made in writing by post or email
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Visit our Planning & Licensing Page (Via Public Services tab above). A link to the licensing page is at the bottom. There you'll find the application and a link to a page telling you how to comment.
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There's more building work to the front today. Looks like another outdoor area on the St. Ann's Road side. This place is still expanding. Please can any other concerned parties get in touch with the council in the ways discussed above.
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Permalink Reply by Betty Careless on
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I live two doors away and I'm really worried about the proposed music licence - not to mention the new outdoor seating area which has appeared at the front. I'm also slightly puzzled by the fact that they're applying for an alcohol licence, as I was in there about a month ago, and they sold us a bottle of wine. The lack of licence may explain why they were a bit cagey about what kinds of drink they actually had - when we asked what types of wine they had they just said red and white!
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I have spoken at length to the licence people at the council. Here are the details:
The licence is granted completely independently of planning issues. So, if the licence they have applied for is granted, they will be licenced to play music/live music in the outdoor area and they will be licenced to open until 11:30. They will be in breech of planning on both of these points but that is nothing to do with their licence.
I explained that several local residents were concerned. We are strongly encouraged to write to the licence committee with our concerns. Only one complaint has so far been received and this does not make for a strong case. If you are (understandably) concerned about anonymity, that isn’t a problem - read on.
The council must receive all complaints by midnight on 23rd August (Next Monday). You should give your name and address and say that you want to remain anonymous. The council then ensure that your details WILL NOT BE PASSED ON TO ANYONE (I was very clear about this).
The complaint itself must follow a fairly strict guideline. I made sure and it is correct that our concerns all fall under the “Public Nuisance” section of the complaints form. Please state this clearly. Then simply say how the licence being granted would constitute a public nuisance.
Try not to be excessively personal about this – they don’t take seriously people who simply don’t like the restaurant. Remain clam, official and serious. It is, however, perfectly ok to say that you think the granting of a licence to play live and recorded music late night 7 days a week wholly unacceptable on a quiet residential street. Of course, add in any specific complaint you have. Letters should be emailed or posted as follows:
Post: fill in this form, attach a covering letter with your name, address, a line requesting anonymity (if you want) and send to:
Licensing Team
Enforcement
Urban Environment
Units 271-272
Lee Valley Technopark
Ashley Road
Tottenham
London
N17 9LN
Email: Give your name, address, a line requesting anonymity, and Sandero’s name and address. Say why the licence would cause a public nuisance (as described above) and email licensing@haringey.gov.uk
The matter is decided in a public hearing (this is standard procedure, complains or none) which will be held sometime in mid-September. Only complaints received before 23rd August can be considered at the hearing. We are advised to have a representative at the hearing to make sure our views are listened to. This can be one of us or it can be a representative we appoint (solicitor, councillor, M.P. etc). No one who complains is at all obliged to attend the hearing though.
Noise enforcement can be called anytime to deal with undue noise from Sandero. This is separate to any planning or licence issues. That’s on:
020 8489 1000, Monday - Friday: 8.45am - 5pm,
020 8348 3148, Weekdays, Monday - Friday: 5pm - 8.45am. Or,
020 8348 3148, Weekends, Friday 5pm to Monday 8.45am.
Finally, the licence people are aware that Sandero is currently selling alcohol without a licence. I am not immediately concerned about this so didn’t really ask about it but anyone who is can call 0208 489 8232 anonymously to get further details. This is also the number to call with any other licence-related queries. -
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