Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Application to remove last remaining windows of Salisbury Promenade
Almost exactly 100 years after Salisbury Promenade was built (1926), the current owners hve applied to replace the remaining original top floor windows with aluminium ones.
What remains is not gold in heritage terms, but collectively , they are one of the last remnants of Harringay's fast dwindling Green Lanes heritage. I think it's also fair to say that they fit with the architecture and are a pleasant part of Harringay's high street. Their replacement with aluminium would be a real shame.
What currently remains are most of the windows in the north half of the building at the Selale end and all bar three of the top panels of the southern half, above Tesco.
Of what remains, the top panels are the unique parts. Those in the south part included panels depicting what appears to be the cross of St George. There is no colour left in the glass, but an inspection of the full-size 1930 photo of the Woolworth store suggests that the crosses were originally coloured. I've recreated that in the photo of those windows below which was shot from inside the gym today.
The top panels in the northern part of the building are different and the colouring in the glass there appears to have survived. These windows are all blocked on the inside. So it is not possible to properly inspect them. The photo of one section of windows below shows the variety of panels included on this part of the building.
None of the first floor windows have been well maintained. I can understand why the current tenants want them replaced. However, instead of replacing them with aluminium windows, there are a number of more heritage-friendly options which I would urge to Council to oblige the owners to employ.
I have alerted the Hornsey Historical Society's conservation officer in the hope that he might make an intervention. I have also alerted Ian Sygrave at the LCSP who knows Haringey's planning policies as well as any resident. Finally, I copied Cllr. Anna Abela on my email to Ray Rogers so that she is aware of the issue.
I will submit an objection to the planning application but will wait for advice from Ray and Ian as to the grounds on which an objection may be best raised.
Although the application was only circulated by Haringey this week, the official received date is 1st August and the date by which any objections must be made is only 1st September.
The full planning application is on Haringey's website here.
Tags for Forum Posts: salisbury promenade
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Salisbury Promenade Windows.pdf, 1.1 MB
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by matthew cuthbert on
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This would be most upsetting if this was granted, every ounce of historic charm is being slowly removed. The windows are sound, cheaper to replace a few small panes & more environmental to retain as it becomes landfill and time to recoup energy costs in production. Secondary units can be fitted inside. I’d be happy to pitch in with time to sand and repaint for one.
Let’s keep our attention focused on this space, there is great charm within this building.
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Permalink Reply by TTTH on
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Hi Hugh, is the building listed or locally listed? Are there any article 4/ conservation area designations? Permitted development rights allow a single dwelling to replace their windows as long as they look similar in appearance (profile and colour), the loophole is that the material doesn’t matter so that’s why many people get away with uPVC. I can’t remember if this applies to commercial buildings as well but I think it does. I think it’s good that they are at least trying to replace with aluminium rather than uPVC. I think if you know the owner, it might be a good idea to approach them now to ask if they could integrate the existing glass into the new panels. It’s even possible to make double glazed units integrating stained glass if thermal efficiency is an argument. It will be more expensive but you could say that there is community interest and a crowd funding page could be set up?
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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Thanks, TT. No, no luck with any listing or designation.
I don't know the owner. They are Lazari Properties.
With a property portfoio of 3.25m sq. ft., I am assuming they won't have much energy to expend on Salisbury Promenade, but, if this were a more important, higher profile issue, one wonders if they may be PR sensitive. Their web blurb claims,
Our vision is to identify buildings and locations with untapped potential across the city and build an exciting legacy for future generations. In doing so, it is essential we adapt to the spaces we shape, investing in innovation and technology to improve them.
We believe that through creative design and high-quality construction, combined with a commitment to sustainability and wellbeing, we can benefit the local, residential and business communities we serve.
Of course, I believe every word they say!
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Permalink Reply by Iliyan on
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Yeah, there are no protections to the building in that regard.
The alteration itself does not really seem to go against policies either.
The biggest issue is that the council might refuse it (tho does not seem very likely), but the applicant can then appeal the decision, and I have seen plenty of appeals for such alterations be granted by the inspectorate.
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Not sure why they need planning permission then. If no designations then I think it’s PD
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It actually does not come under PD. Commercial properties have a very limited PD... in fact they would have needed planning permission for the entrance alteration. Not very sure if planning enforcement will deem it expedient but that is a separate topic.
Generally speaking, planning permission is needed if the work being carried out meets the statutory definition of ‘development’ which is set out in section 55 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. Works that do not ‘materially affect‘ the external appearance of the building, fall outside the Act’s definition of development and do not require planning permission, whether to a flat, house or any other form of building. The term ‘materially affect’ has no statutory definition but is linked to the significance of the change which is made to a building’s external appearance.
Change of material to windows has always been a bit hazy, as it is not quite clear in the legislation, but overall in most cases the stance of councils and the planning inspectorate is that a change from timber to upvc or aluminum will require planning permission.
Again it is quite depending on a context, but in majority of cases the change would require permission.
If the council decides to refuse the application for those windows, they need to give a really good reason that is based on the local policies and plans, otherwise it is quite likely that an appeal of the refusal can be won. Inspectors, rarely care about local politics and groups, they review based on policies and legislations.
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The local plan does have quite a bit of emphasis on protecting heritage assets, but it is important to note what heritage assets are. The National Planning Policy Framework (NPPF) defines heritage asset as "a building, monument, site, place, area or landscape identified as having a degree of significance meriting consideration in planning decisions, because of its heritage interest".
Since the building is neither statutory nor locally listed, it will mostly depend on the overall streetscape, which in my opinion is not of such high quality that the change of those windows will impact it negatively.
Our best fighting chance is to take it directly to the owners and show them that there are quite a good amount of people who are interested in preserving the details.
Not saying not to object to the application, but all I am saying that we should focus our attention on the developer/owner rather than the application.
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You sound very knowledgeable on these issues. Iliyan. Is that something you fancy taking a lead on?
(BTW I disagree that the change won't negatively impact the streetscape. I don't share the opinion that only heritage of the highest quality should be respected.
Imagine either windows renewed in the style of or aluminium windows. In my opinion, the aluminium will look awful.)
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I bow to lliyan's knowledge on PD rights. I work in local government Planning and this is such a grey area. You cannot even guarantee that an officer will make the right decision so I think a good response to the Council via perhaps an amenity group - some locals ones you might have heard of here: Conservation area advisory committees | Haringey Council.
Quoting PD rights and local policy is a good way forward. Engaging with the applicant to say how important the windows are, is also good. They may not even know/ care. I wish I could help more but like all Council officers these days, I'm over worked
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Permalink Reply by Geraldine on
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Thanks for all you're doing to keep our heritage alive, Hugh. Those windows are so much part of the whole picture I remember. That stretch was good for roller skating past Woolworths and Salon Bal.
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I think that entire building looks so sad/neglected/abused. I remember it looking almost marble like and quite grand. I hope you achieve what you set out to. But sadly I very much doubt if it will get the care and attention required.
Geraldine, I wonder if we ever bumped into each other on that wonderful marble forefront.........it was heaven for us skaters eh. Though the 'older' shoppers would curse us.
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