Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
John Cathles Hill born about 1858
Does anyone know the actual date of his birthday.
I'll be in London in July 2018. I aim to try get up to the Salisbury for at least one drink. It's the least I can do to toast my great uncle. Not that I'd know h from a bar of soap.
Cheers PK
Melb. AUS.
Tags for Forum Posts: edwardian builders made good, john cathles hill
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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See my Wikipedia article.
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Permalink Reply by Paul W Kelly on
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Tks Hugh.
PK
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If you like I can fill in some more detail. John's brother Robert Scott Hill arrived in Melbourne Australia in 1880. in 1883 he married Mary Rose Shea, a colonial girl from New Norfolk VDL(Tasmania) they had two children, Eliza 'Queenie' Cathles Hill born in 1884 and Joan Cathels Hill born in 1894. Robert Hill was a master wright(carpenter) in his own write.
While I cannot substantiate it I rather think that he was in Australia seeking to further develop his brothers business.
I have never been able to find any indication that he actually did any work in Aus. He rather seemed to travel back and fourth from Australia and England. From what I am told on one journey he took his wife and children back to England.
A huge dispute occurred within the family, due from what I can gather, from the fact that Mary was a Catholic and the daughter of a convict. In fact Mary was born Bridget Shea in New Norfolk Tas in 1861, and changed her name when she became an apprentice Drapemaker in Melbourne.
It was common in the 1880's to obscure any connection to convicts. It's something we colonials have long since given up on, I myself have 5 convicts, my wife has two convicts. My daughters husband has two convicts meaning my grandchildren have 9. at some stage it become a bit pointelss.
Any way, to continue the story of Robert and Mary. Mary ran out on Robert in London and boarded a ship for Cape Town. Robert his two daughters in train boarded the next ship to Cape town. Now here the story gets a little cloudy. Either on the ship from London or in Cape Town, Mary met up with an Edward Jones who was returning to Melbourne.
I don't know if Robert actually caught up with Mary, but I do know that Eliza and Joan found their way back to Melbourne. Mary lived with Edward Jones in his house in 53 Islington St Abbotsford until he died in 1917, he left the house to Mary, who lived their until she died in 1948. Robert at some stage is reported to have joined the 1st Royal Scotts and participated in the Boer War.
According to the UK casualty list a Robert Hill was wounded at Ladysmith 24 Feb1900 and died four days later.
To this end the story of Roberts death is a little obscure, as my grand mother Queenie told my older cousin that Robert died around the time of the Boer War, no mention of being in it, there are also copious amounts of Robert Hills departing Australia in 1901, as well as a record of a Robert Hill sailing from New York to Dundee in 1924.... It is indeed a tale of mystery and intrigue.
Cheers Paul Kelly
Melbourne Vic
Aus.
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Thanks Paul.
BTW, this is where your great uncle ended up living by 1894.
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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I'm surprised, given your surname, that you're still in Victoria. My Kelly ancestors left Australia to hide in New Zealand from the supposed backlash over the Kelly gang. What do you call a sophisticated Australian? A New Zealander.
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Hi John,
My Kelly's came to Aus in October 1850. They arrived on a ship named Nile. His name was John Kelly, he came from Co Clare. where it intersects with Co Tipperary and Co Limerick. The Nile was a Convict transport, John was a Pensioner soldier of the 1st Royal Foot(Royal Scotts) and paid to guard the convicts. He bought with five children, a sixth, my great grandfather Kelly was born in Longford Tas. Around 1860 the whole family moved to Wegeena near Deloraine, and farmed over a wide area along Kellys Cage Rd. Over time some of the grand children moved away to the mainland and to places like New Zealand. I heading over to Tassy in April to have a bit of a poke around Deloraine, there may even be some Kelly's still in the area.
Oh, my mothers family line goes back to the first Fleet, a convict named John Bryant, he became known as John Ryan. He was one of the silly young men that got caught up in stealing some peas and pork from the Quartermaster supplies. The four conspirators were caught and sentenced to death, While up on the scaffold one of the soldiers climbed up and spoke to Ryan and offered him his life if he did the task of hanging the others. he agreed and they were all taken down from the scaffold while Governor Phillip signed the approval, in the end only Thomas Barrett was hung, Ryan did such a bad job of it he was never asked to do it again, and lived out his life in the colony in an area known as Wilberforce.
On the Kelly gang side, well Ned had a great Uncle named John Kelly, and there are thousands of them. Well Neds John Kelly was born in the same Geographic area as my John Kelly at around the same Time. Ned's John just seemed to disappear from all records. My John also did a disappearing act in 1825 when at the age of 19 he joined the British army in Cashel Tipperary. Well Cashel is only a few miles from where Neds father was born. Hmmmm. you just have to wonder...was my John Kelly Neds missing great Uncle, well we'll never really know, they could never extract any atomic Y-DNA from Ned, only Mitrochondria DNA(female).
You do know that in 1901 NZ almost became a part of Australia, it was the lack of inclusion of the original population NZ and First Nation Australians that caused NZ to back out of the plan.
Cheers PK
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Well, my trip has come crashing to a Halt. The old ticker did a big hop and skip on Saturday, Just spent the week in hospital.
Cheers PK
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Permalink Reply by Richard Woods on
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Is George Cathles a descendant? I recall his as Tory leader and chair of Wood Green Council before it was gobbled up by Haringey. He fought the 1955 election in Wood Green. He was I recall very dapper and a canny politician.
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Hi Richard,
I show five Geaorge Cathles in my tree, starting with(I think) George Cathles(Kinlock) abt 1827 Meigel Sco,
other George Cathles are born/died as follows,
b1857(Dundee),
b ? d1917,
b1925,
and one born late 1940's
The tree I am looking at was compiled about 15 years ago and is far from complete.
I'd really need to get an idea of how old he is/was, in order to work out where he fits in. probably the one born around 1925 :)
Cheers PK
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Hi - I'll see what I can do. Agree 1925 - it fits my memory.
Richard
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Permalink Reply by Dorothy Rynhold on
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Good to hear you are coming over in July. Would be delighted to meet you. The Salisbury is fine. My daughter went in there a year or so ago and the landlord was pleased to speak with her and told her how they try to keep the place as it was built. I assume you have never been there before. You can contact me direct on dcathles@gmail.com
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