Running total #5.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by TimP on December 5, 2017 at 23:34

He is hilarious. I am so important. And always right.....

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by John McMullan on December 6, 2017 at 10:19

Ad-hominem. Classy.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Azeem Ali Khan on December 8, 2017 at 9:10

Alan described Clare Kober as "diseased," which strikes me as worse, no?

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by John McMullan on December 8, 2017 at 9:18

He said "diseased secretive Kober council".

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on December 8, 2017 at 9:52

Hi, Azeem Ali Khan I'm no longer following this discussion thread. But I saw your comment on the Hol Home page.

If you don't think the Kober regime is secretive, I'd invite you to request the 1000+ exempt secret yellow pages about the Haringey-Lendlease deal. It is currently unavailable to non-cabinet councillors, to residents, tenants and leaseholders - including those threatened by demolition of their homes and the legal advisors representing them.

The yellow pages may of course contain nothing more controversial than the menus planned for the dinners of the Joint "vehicle". But I somehow doubt it. Stuff is usually kept secret for a reason.

Were you to consider buying or renting a property within the red-lined (i.e. possible demolition) area, then you and your solicitor would not be able to obtain reliable 'hard' information on the demolition plans and whether or not the property will either be demolished of perhaps be next to a building site for say 15 or 20 years. Unhelpful if you are trying for instance to negotiate a mortgage. Or a bank loan to invest in a business.
Nor would most of the councillors be able to get this information should they ask.

This is not the same as "redlining" as you would read about in some areas in the USA. in the past. But the analogy in my view, is relevant.
I doubt that there would be much disagreement that this is "planning blight". This is compounded by the fact that senior Council staff use weasel words like "artists impression" and "indicative" when they produce maps of affected homes and businesses.

Consider too the "Shadow Board" appointed secretly by Claire Kober with its unminuted meetings. And the secret meetings on yachts, hotels, MIPIM and the rest.

If you don't consider openness and transparency one indication of a healthy local democracy then you and I must agree to differ. I assume you know about the Nolan Committee.
If you quote me please try to do so accurately.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Azeem Ali Khan on December 8, 2017 at 12:43

I stand corrected, in that "diseased" wasn't aimed personally at an individual. Mea culpa. I still think it's a crappy word to use about a group of people in this context, mind you. I was not commenting about the substantive issues.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on December 8, 2017 at 13:59

Thanks Azeem Ali Khan for your fair and thoughtful reply.

Again let us agree to differ on a matter of language. My use of health and disease in the context of an organisation is plainly a metaphor in the sense that a body of people is not a single organism; nor is it a group of organisms affected or infected by some external organism.

Nevertheless I'd suggest it can often be an illuminating metaphor when we try to understand what we see. Or to describe the behaviour of people not simply as atomised and autonomous individuals but norms and patterns of behaviour shared and developed within a group or organisation. 
Sometimes this is described with terms like "group think", or gang behaviour or - more neutrally - group processes or social psychology. Sometimes the phrase used is "organisational culture".

A more recently used term is "echo chamber". That's very much like a similar metaphor repeated over the centuries as people try to get to grips with how a group functions. Sometimes almost as if the aim is to actively prevent learning and enlightenment. (This is one possible interpretation of the Plato's cave story. There's a classical echo chamber for you.)

You find disease "a crappy word". I find the health/sickness/disease metaphor useful and fair. Not least because it suggests that individuals within a bad situation who behave in bad ways are not entirely blameworthy as individuals. Crowd behaviour affects everyone. It isn't a real virus but can seem to operate like one.

Something positive and uplifting can happen when people sing, or march or pray together. Or something violent and hateful when a rally or a mob is swept up in feelings it can't control. Many times people say something like: "Why did I do that? I'm not really like that. Why didn't I see what was happening and say 'No'?"

We also begin to understand the courage of the whistle-blowers who do say 'No'. The individuals who swim against the current and risk losing their careers or friends or worse. (I'm not claiming any such bravery, by the way.)

Permalink Reply by John McMullan on December 8, 2017 at 14:38

Oh are you saying that the council deselected Zena in 2013? I think it's incredibly poor of you to say that. She was deselected fraudulently and well you know it. She's since twice been selected in Harringay with enormous support.

Permalink Reply by pamish on December 6, 2017 at 0:48

Fortis Green result now added.  And map #6

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Admiral on December 7, 2017 at 11:57

OssieDream threatens to "crucify my new councillor", albeit adding the non sequitor "non-violently". This is vile language reminiscent of racist Britain First and the murderer of the MP Jo Cox. He'd be well advised not to continue in this vein.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by John D on December 7, 2017 at 12:21

I think that was a metaphor

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Admiral on December 7, 2017 at 12:25

An incredibly stupid one to use given all that has been going on.

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• …
• 3
• 4
• 5
• 6
• Next ›
• Page