the two pictures show an over all time line of two seconds . It is unclear whether I was stationary or moving amongst the traffic in front and behind my own vehicle. Does any one know whether appeals can be submitted on this basis.
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in the borough for the next 20 years).
I wrote about it in a series of posts, the first of which was entitled "Huge Swathes of Harringay Earmarked to 'Accommodate Majority of Development in Borough'". It's explained in more detail in my second post.
Following these posts there has been a consultation which some of us responded to.
This week, a local resident revealed that he'd painstakingly gone through a 1,500 page document in which the Council replied to residents' concerns raised in the consultation.
One of the issues that emerged is that the housing planned for the Arena is likely to see Sainsbury's demolished. That housing will be grouped around at least one 8-storey block.
Below is an extract from the LCSP minutes, showing residents' concerns raised in the left-hand column and the Council response in the right.
(It's interesting to note in the responses that after years of denial, the Council have finally admitted their last cock-up and said that it was the expansion of Sainsbury's that is a major contributor to the traffic problems on Green Lanes).
As I said repeatedly last year, there are huge changes planned for Harringay. I'd hoped the Council would work alongside residents, but the tenor of their replies suggests that they may be riding roughshod over our views after all.
Opposition to 8 storey block on Arena site
“Detailed design will be required on all sites to gain planning permission, and specific height limits will not be included in Site Allocations, with all developments expected to respond appropriately to their context
“Action: remove height limits from the allocations”
Inadequate medical facilities for proposed population increase via Site Developments, especially the Arena site
“It is considered that this site, due to its size, if comprehensively redeveloped, may be an opportunity to create some new community infrastructure”
How will some 1400 new residents and a new primary frontage, all proposed for the Arena site, reduce traffic impact?
The site will be designed in such a way that it will help to keep shopping traffic, local and accessed primarily by foot. Additionally, pedestrian access to the park, as well as to Manor House and Harringay Green Lanes station will be improved. Additionally, the reduced congestion from cars accessing the site for car-borne shopping trips will help to improve bus efficiency”
Concern that Green Lanes cannot cope with more traffic and that Arena site proposals will make this even worse“
Disagree. Alleviation of current traffic issues is one of the key reasons for allocating this site. Initial transport modelling has shown that the supermarket is the single largest draw for car-borne traffic, which is then compounded by the other car-compatible uses on the retail park. By replacing these uses with more walk-up retail, congestion at this point can be alleviated” “The allocation includes provision for the superstore to no longer operate”
A longer extract from the LCSP minutes is attached.
Now may be the time to rally round the GRA, WPRA and LCSP and find a way of getting residents' views heard.
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's Head and Sainsbury's. They are going to allow buses to have priority into this area and now allow traffic to over take. This means they won't need the bus lanes and can use that space for a dual use pedestrian/parking area.
The only thing that I saw being a problem (apart from this must cost more than the money allocated) was that there was even worse provision for cycling than we have at the moment.…
'd be willing to assist with this) but whether the council will accept data from non-professional surveyors is another matter, particularly as we as residents have a vested interest in the findings.
Putting a mini-roundabout at the junction of Green Lanes and the Athena retail park (aka Sainsbury's) and getting rid of all the traffic lights in Green Lanes between Endymion Rd and Turnpike Lane might be all it takes - and should cost a lot less than the £100K the council quoted for a survey.
Getting things done round here reminds me of mating elephants: (a) it's all done at high level (b) it's accompanied by a great deal of roaring & screaming and (c) it takes 2 years to get results.…
weekend years ago because it was a nightmare. On one random Wednesday I was stuck in the car park for an hour and was getting worried that I would be late to pick up my son from school. I called the manager while I was in the car park and asked why no one was directing traffic. He told me there were no qualified traffic co-ordinators available and last time he sent untrained staff out one got ran over. But he offered to let me leave my car in the car park and pay for a taxi for me to get to school - which I thought was great customer service.…
t these junctions.
Firstly, if you're coming out from Sainsburys' and waiting to turn left, if you're at the front of the line you have to look to your right to see if the left turn arrow is lit. Surely there should be another light in front of the queuing traffic? This is even more relevant if, like today, the bulb has gone in the arrow box so you're not aware you can move forward.
Next, if you're then waiting to turn right into Endymion Rd, you have to move forward to wait putting you in front of the traffic lights. Since they redesigned this junction there is now no lights to let you know of the change from green to red which often means that some drivers are still moving forwards to turn when the lights have changed and are green for the Endymion exiting cars. Again, shouldn't there be a set of lights ahead on the other side of the junction? Perhaps they should even consider putting in a filter system there?
These few points are some of the factors that contribute to the gridlock traffic problems people are experiencing there. The planners weren't using joined up thinking methinks.
I also wonder if these planners actually drive around the areas, at varying times to experience the problems that exist. Or do they just stand there with a clip board for ten minutes or so ticking little boxes on a ready made form that bears no relevance to different situations at different sites?…
urveying.
Wightman Rd + Turnpike Lane, in and outbound
Alroy Ave + Enymion Rd, in and outbound
Green Lanes + Endymion Rd, in and outbound
Sailsbury Rd + Green Lanes, inbound
St Anne's Rd + Green Lanes, in and outbound
Harringay Rd + Green Lanes, inbound
Alfoxton Ave + Green Lanes, inbound
West Green Rd + Green Lanes, outbound
Turnpike Lane and West Green Rd, outbound
Maybe an extra one for Sainsburys in and outbound - would they contribute to the cost?
The thing is, eveything else is now so easy to model (with a computer)because they have closed off the gardens and made all the ladder roads one-way.
I'd like to go back to the council and get some more details of their quote. I notice that these people do surveys for Islington and these guys can do them for "London".
I really don't think there is anything much we can do about the traffic volumes but once you have some data and a model you can play with it and maybe something surprising will come up. We certainly need something as a baseline before things get worse (and yes they can get worse!).
Is the relevant person from the council a member of this site?…
Sainsbury's in Harringay has done anything for our neighbourhood except attract more traffic into the area.
So it's vital that there's been such little interest or local debate.
But, let's pass over my personal views spit-spot and have a look at what the experts have to say.
A quick trawl on the net offers the following:
There's a Friends of the Earth report from 2006 (pdf) which explains how, in their view, supermarkets are given planning permission because they're "difficult to refuse".
There's a Demos report from earlier in the year, Civic Streets, which argues that Big supermarket chains have a key role to play in regenerating Britain's poorest communities. Report author Max Wind-Cowie said: 'Major supermarkets are not the enemy of the Big Society. They have a role to play in helping deprived communities to regenerate by reducing stigma, boosting community morale and by bringing low-cost, quality produce into the area. 'It's easy to be cynical about mainstream retail chains, but they can be the game-changer for transforming perceptions within and outside of run-down neighbourhoods.' Quite whether this argument applies to Hornsey, let alone whether it's correct, I'll leave to you to decide.
And hot on the heels of that report there's a response from the New Economics Foundation, expressing the view that Supermarkets don't regenerate communities – they hoover money out.
Retail & Regeneration in London (rtf), from the Mayor's office, looking at benefits of supermarkets to deprived areas.
Then there's a thoughtful sounding piece (I haven't got access to it), From 'chains' to partnerships? Supermarkets and regeneration, which looks at alleged dis-benefits and possible benefits and offers the possibility for a hybrid solution in some areas — stores that are community owned but supermarket supplied and quality controlled.
So, it looks like you pays your money, you makes yer choice.
I guess what all this tells me is that there's plenty of thinking gone into the pros and cons of allowing new supermarkets to move in to an area. So, how was all this evidence, together with the experience gained in Harringay, used by the Council in making the decision to sell the Hornsey Depot land to Sainsbury's?
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be stations to shopping areas to cut down on that constant blockage around the Arena, Sainsburys etc.
How about banning drive in restaurants such as McDonalds in built up areas like ours? Now that would be radical but would cut some of the traffic out of the hellish mess we have round there.... Customers could walk and burn off some of the fat they are eating! …
tty bad also)
Not sure if people who live here a long time have become used to it but its not normal to have that much traffic in a residential road such a Wightman road. Green lanes is virtually gridlocked every day especially around Sainsbury's. We cycle to work each day and its been absolutely wonderful having such a safe quiet road to cycle down. Wightman road is normally the busiest and dangerous part of the entire journey and thats cycling all the way into central London and to Canary Wharf each day. Most of the people driving through just use it as a rat run they dont live on the ladder and probably not even in Harringay. Why should residents have to put up with all the noise and pollution? Wightman road is actually a very pretty road but its totally blighted by all the traffic. Look at just south of Finsbury park and they have permantly closed a lot of the residential roads to traffic with the major roads such as Blackstock and Green lanes taking the through traffic.
I would be interested if most of the residents on Wightman like it being closed or find it inconvenient ?
Personally I would Permanently close Wightman and to hell with the knock on effects ! Let traffic go on Green lanes or through Crouch end - look at a map its just a huge residential rat run and in my eyes unacceptable !
We live on Beresford road BTW x…