Just as side issue, some people on this site get very hot under the collar about cars. I questioned widespread ownership of cars in the parking bays debate and two ladies had a go...one called me a 'yummy mummy' and I don't think she meant it in a nice way! (I didn't really mind)
You know, I'm quite charming with old ladies too but I bet they prefer a nice young man like you ! Tell you what, you handle the old ladies and I'll deal with the men that look like school principals...
You know John, I think Hugh is having a little R and R after a busy week, he's not trapped in an office with a load of lawyers anymore, as the MetroBet, hearing finished yesterday. He'll update us on it shortly.
Ah, no, although it's not clear, it's referring to an url of a photo you have uploaded elsewhere on the site. Although you can add flickr photos on the photo pages.
Yeah, I think it's best we all move on. But I am a bit annoyed and sort of wishing I'd never said anything at all. Thanks for starting the forum, I think important points were made. But next time I think I'll remain a silent observer as it seems quite clear that my opinions on things (and this isn't the only thread I've felt this way about) differ quite markedly from those of a lot of people on here, so making comments opens me up to a lot of criticism. I guess if I can't take it (and to be honest I don't really feel like it bc I think it's opposed to what I think should be the spirit of a site like this) I should just stick to nice benign discussions like ones about cycling routes :) Anyway thanks for your efforts.
John, if you have friends with strong voices of moderation, then I'd welcome them piping up. They're the sort of voices that are most welcome and need to be heard. If other members feel people are being Nimby tehn they should say so and explain their views. Otherwise they miss an opportunity to educate/explain.
The lady who called me 'yummy mummy' took a silly exchange about cars completely seriously and had a right go at me. Another one gave me a hard time when I complained about white vans...you never know who's reading!
Have a good holiday! Thanks for telling me or I would have worried that I'd put you off with all my talk in the 'Are we too cosy' conversation. Visiting family in Sweden?
Hi John, I had been thinking of adding you onto "my friends" list.. But I think I'll defer at the moment...... "your friends" seem to be fated with "the curse of the friendly mcmullan"...... breaking trolleybus windows with their heads... loosing their teeth from a cricket ball.. and another example I'm far too lazy to sort out... so there!! ;o)
Yes, the 2cv is not famous for it's sturdiness. If I hit something head on I'll probably be ok, but if something big hits me from the side I am toast. So I am marginally better protected that you are, but don't have the benefit of the exercise you get on your bike. Ho hum. At least I am relatively green. Just look at me!
John, as the discussion is closed I will respond to you via this : )
I have been on a million and one trains with football fans, most weekends in fact, I have rarely seen any trouble. In fact have been complimented man a time, individually and a part of official supporters groups.
I lived in Sheffield in Euro 1996, not one spot of bother. Thousands were enjoying their mutual love of the game, I made a lot of Euro friends then, it made your heart glow.
As you are a Kiwi and it seems follows rugby and cricket it's very assumpious (sp?) to conclude what you have.
Football has a minority of idiots, considering it is the most participated and watched sport in the world you are going to get that. I will not deny for a minute there are some.
I saw loads of trouble after a game, possibly fuelled by grog at a Dunedin v Crusaders game five years ago. I have not concluded that this is a rugby problem, it is a society problem. I have also experienced more racism in rugby than football, which says what? Some sections of society see it fit to be racist and agro fuelled, not rugby fans.
The thing I dislike is people who know next to nothing about the game concluding very binary arguments.
I have been to European cups, World cups and loads of lower league games and the argy bargy rate is next to zero.
As I said the middle class attitude of football really gets my goat with the only experience being one Arsenal game and a paninni and a handful of games on the telly.
The fair ground on Ducketts spurs trouble as do the various music festivals at FP. Damn fair going hooligan types.
just sent this comment to my husband...how clever of me!
"that's if it isn't soaking wet! Saying that its a good idea, especially as we don't have a car to go back and forth to the recycling center.. so if you see a large cloud of smoke one day....
thanks for the info on the wooden fence. Didn't see your comment until now".
'probably no god' written across a bendy bus is the best way I know to wind up the majority of Londoners...bring it on! Now where did I leave my horns and little fork?
Not my descision to make John. However when a death happens it is always treat as a crime scene and all evidence from witnessess, road conditions, state of driver, mechanical soundness of vehicle etc are taken into account.
I played no part in the investigation the first on scene was a team officer and then obviously Senior officers and Traffic officers are then involved. An Inspector will be in overall charge of the investigation in a matter like this.
My understanding is that London Travelwatch is the place to start, because they certainly do consultations to assess demand for new routes which they are considering.. Having visited their website, however, I didn;t find anywhere which seemed appropriate for getting a new proposal on their agenda. I've therefore sought advice. When I hear back, I'll let you know.
The procedure is to prepare a case as to why the proposed route needed and then to organise a petition in support. The material should then be passed to Transport for London. If you can work out how the proposed route might be married up with an existing route, that would improve its chances for approval.
I've asked Caroline Pidgeon, who is one of the Lib Dem members of the GLA and who is the Deputy Chair of the Transport Committee, as to precisely where the material ought to be addressed. She has offered to pass it on to the relevant person and has advised that it be addressed to the Mayor as chair of TfL.
Her contact details are:
Cllr Caroline Pidgeon AM
Liberal Democrat Group
Deputy Chair Transport Committee
London Assembly
Tel: 020 7983 4362
I've since received some further advice, which I reproduce below. I think that we would all agree that the mooted suggestions about diverting the 29 or 141 are unrealistic, not least because of the narrowness of Wightman Road and the width of these buses. Likewise, I cannot see the diversion of the W5 attracting any support from existing users who want to make a quick trip to the Sainsbury's. It could, I suppose, be diverted as far as Burgoyne Road, but that would confer little benefit on Wightman Road residents to compensate for the disruption in service that would be caused. So the task, I suppose, is to persuade TfL to agree a new route. Because a diversion of bus routes now going along Green Lanes would not be an option, I don't think that it would be necessary to survey the ladder roads beyond, say, Harringay Passage. However, the rail passengers at Hornsey Stn. should be consulted in addition to those using Harringay Stn.
Anyway, here is what I've received: TfL London Buses are mostly hostile to agreeing new routes. The most important consideration is gathering credible evidence of sufficient demand (they are very difficult about conceding what constitutes sufficient demand).
You also need to have good answers about the impact a new route would have on existing services. If an existing route is to be diverted, how many existing passengers would lose out ?
Consequently, a well constructed house-to-house survey is necessary. I would say this needs to go into all the households not only along Wightman Road itself but on all the intersecting sidestreets which connect with Green Lanes, and indeed along both sides of Green Lanes itself. Since the new route would serve Harringay rail station, you could also find a way to survey rail passengers entering and leaving the station from the east side, and ask them whether a bus stop outside the station would be welcome.
However, you may end up finding out that diverting one of the routes along Green Lanes is a seriously unpopular proposal.
One of the reasons TfL dislike agreeing to new bus routes is that it involves the set-up and administration costs of a whole new bus contract to be franchised out. So it is always better to try to persuade them to adapt the existing network.
Two bus routes currently operate along Green Lanes, the road parallel to Wightman Road: the 29 (Trafalgar Square to Enfield Town) and the 141 (London Bridge Station to Palmers Green). A case could be made for routeing one of them via Turnpike Lane and along Wightman Road and returning to Green Lanes via Endymion Road. This would fulfil your residents' objective of getting a service connecting them to both Wood Green and (if the 29 route is chosen) Finsbury Park.
There might, however, be an uproar from 29/141 passengers used to boarding and alighting along Green Lanes - and my suspicion is that there might be more users on the main road than along Wightman Road.
However, there is an argument in favour of one of these key routes going past Harringay rail station: a new rail/bus interchange is a powerful reason for diverting one of them.
If all we are trying to do is get some kind of bus service on to some of Wightman Road, you may find it easier to persuade TfL to adapt a "little local service" like the W5 (Archway to Harringay Sainsbury's) rather than altering either major arterial/radial bus route.
The W5 could turn into Wightman Road from Endymion Road, take in Harringay Station, and then either run the whole length of Wightman Road to Turnpike Lane and back to Sainsbury's along Green Lanes; or, turn into one of the suburban side roads connecting to Green Lanes if a shorter route is thought more viable. I don't know these side streets, and fear they may be too narrow and cluttered both sides with residents' parked cars.
John, I've now seen David's further comments and the feedback he's had from his sources.
However 'hostile' TfL may be to initiating totally new routes, I think that's just what's needed rather than any diversion of W5 or other routes. As you both say: a lot of work.
Your proposed route has the advantage of travelling mainly virgin territory, therefore not greatly impinging on existing routes' business. The addition of the Campsbourne Estate loop (?and any similar poorly served estates/streets along Tollington Pk Rd ?) can only strengthen that argument.
I still think we need a shorter, slimmer bus model than the W4/W5 to convince all the car parkers of Wightman Road. That model originally designed for Jersey/Guernsey's narrow roads and used here and there on the 'mainland' might be the job. StephenBln might be the expert on that.
The door-to-door petitioning, though demanding, wouldn't be impossible once we're sure enough of what we want so as to bring some more of our HOL sceptics on side. I'm convinced there's enough residents, including some drivers, who would be glad to use a bus on your suggested route on a fairly regular basis.
Any ideas you have on a way forward? I know I have some persuading to do within WRN4RA for a start!
John - aren't O'Donovans on of your betes noirs? Check out this blog I love N15 which seems to be having a hell of a time with them.
Welcome back btw, missed you at the meeting. B2 and I had a right old set to (friends again)! And no one made me stay for just one more...
Except, John, that the mobility/dial-a-ride model might carry a bit of a stigma - that the route is really for the 'aged & infirm' rather than being a fully grown-up bus???
"Thanks, John. Though I hope this is one invitation I won't be able to accept.
Cllr Harry Lister has called this evening's meeting for 7pm - which is thirty minutes before the start of the first part of the Labour Group AGM. Among other things the AGM elects the Chief Whip for the Municipal Year.
I've now posted Cllr Lister's latest email, with my reply, here on Flickr.
You'll see that despite my asking several times, I still haven't had Cllr Lister's list of my nine Flickr pages he objects to. Perhaps it's just photos taken in daylight and fresh air he finds so scary.
He insists that I won't "get sight of the report" until 7 pm this evening. Which is a bit late to start writing a rebuttal, calling witnesses etc. So I'm assuming that this evening Labour councillors - the vast majority of whom are a decent hardworking bunch of people - will recognise this is a flagrant breach of the principles of Natural Justice, and won't let Lister's showtrial go ahead."
Hi John, I will pop my head in and have a swift half if I can. To be completely honest I am a bit skint at the moment, hey maybe my old mate James will buy me one ;-) I hope you all have a great evening.
Hi John!!! I'm on the wrong side of the tracks really but HOL is so much better than my own forum. It is a beacon site!! I could become an addict although I am very new to social networking. Btw how come I got an instant reply from you - amazing.
Ameba gives you total control over what your children watch by allowing you to preselect from thousands of educational and music themed shows; ... amebatv.com/
could this really work, Joe thinks Nefertiti is a character from Scooby Doo, which at least is a start? sounds like an incentive to play more a watch less.
Aww thanks! Maybe I was being a bit over sensitive last night (and over-tired!), but that's just who I am, very sensitive, and really quite a nice, kind person, and felt like I was being portrayed as some nasty crop-wielding property obsessed cow!
But having slept on it, I'll try to not take things too personally in future. Thank for the encouraging message.
matt
You're be talking rugby manoeuvres now. :)
Feb 11, 2008
Liz
Feb 19, 2008
Liz
Liz
Feb 19, 2008
Liz
Feb 19, 2008
Liz
Feb 19, 2008
PeterPiper
Take care
Peter
Feb 22, 2008
PeterPiper
Feb 22, 2008
Liz
Feb 28, 2008
Liz
Mar 7, 2008
Hugh
Mar 7, 2008
Hugh
Mar 7, 2008
Hugh
Mar 7, 2008
Hugh
Mar 7, 2008
Lauren W
Mar 10, 2008
Hugh
Mar 10, 2008
Birdy_Too
Mar 10, 2008
Liz
Mar 16, 2008
Liz
Mar 19, 2008
Liz
Mar 20, 2008
StephenBln
Apr 2, 2008
Liz
May 6, 2008
Liz
May 18, 2008
matt
Jun 7, 2008
matt
Jun 11, 2008
Anette
How did you work out how econimical my 'Boo is?
Jun 17, 2008
Anette
Jun 18, 2008
Birdy_Too
I have been on a million and one trains with football fans, most weekends in fact, I have rarely seen any trouble. In fact have been complimented man a time, individually and a part of official supporters groups.
I lived in Sheffield in Euro 1996, not one spot of bother. Thousands were enjoying their mutual love of the game, I made a lot of Euro friends then, it made your heart glow.
As you are a Kiwi and it seems follows rugby and cricket it's very assumpious (sp?) to conclude what you have.
Football has a minority of idiots, considering it is the most participated and watched sport in the world you are going to get that. I will not deny for a minute there are some.
I saw loads of trouble after a game, possibly fuelled by grog at a Dunedin v Crusaders game five years ago. I have not concluded that this is a rugby problem, it is a society problem. I have also experienced more racism in rugby than football, which says what? Some sections of society see it fit to be racist and agro fuelled, not rugby fans.
The thing I dislike is people who know next to nothing about the game concluding very binary arguments.
I have been to European cups, World cups and loads of lower league games and the argy bargy rate is next to zero.
As I said the middle class attitude of football really gets my goat with the only experience being one Arsenal game and a paninni and a handful of games on the telly.
The fair ground on Ducketts spurs trouble as do the various music festivals at FP. Damn fair going hooligan types.
Jun 22, 2008
Birdy_Too
Jun 22, 2008
Dominic
"that's if it isn't soaking wet! Saying that its a good idea, especially as we don't have a car to go back and forth to the recycling center.. so if you see a large cloud of smoke one day....
thanks for the info on the wooden fence. Didn't see your comment until now".
Jul 9, 2008
Liz
Jul 29, 2008
Liz
"Bendy-buses, like atheism, are a danger to the public at large"
Stephen Green of pressure group Christian Voice
Oct 21, 2008
Liz
Oct 21, 2008
Nigel Lupton (luptonn)
Dec 9, 2008
Harringay SNT
I played no part in the investigation the first on scene was a team officer and then obviously Senior officers and Traffic officers are then involved. An Inspector will be in overall charge of the investigation in a matter like this.
Mar 12, 2009
matt
David and LD crew are doing a door to door petition for 20mph zone for Wightman Rd. Maybe they'll make it over to Lausanne next wkd.
Apr 6, 2009
David Schmitz
My understanding is that London Travelwatch is the place to start, because they certainly do consultations to assess demand for new routes which they are considering.. Having visited their website, however, I didn;t find anywhere which seemed appropriate for getting a new proposal on their agenda. I've therefore sought advice. When I hear back, I'll let you know.
Best,
David
Apr 7, 2009
David Schmitz
I've now heard back from the enquiry I made.
The procedure is to prepare a case as to why the proposed route needed and then to organise a petition in support. The material should then be passed to Transport for London. If you can work out how the proposed route might be married up with an existing route, that would improve its chances for approval.
I've asked Caroline Pidgeon, who is one of the Lib Dem members of the GLA and who is the Deputy Chair of the Transport Committee, as to precisely where the material ought to be addressed. She has offered to pass it on to the relevant person and has advised that it be addressed to the Mayor as chair of TfL.
Her contact details are:
Cllr Caroline Pidgeon AM
Liberal Democrat Group
Deputy Chair Transport Committee
London Assembly
Tel: 020 7983 4362
Hope this helps.
David
Apr 8, 2009
David Schmitz
Thanks for the kind words.
I've since received some further advice, which I reproduce below. I think that we would all agree that the mooted suggestions about diverting the 29 or 141 are unrealistic, not least because of the narrowness of Wightman Road and the width of these buses. Likewise, I cannot see the diversion of the W5 attracting any support from existing users who want to make a quick trip to the Sainsbury's. It could, I suppose, be diverted as far as Burgoyne Road, but that would confer little benefit on Wightman Road residents to compensate for the disruption in service that would be caused. So the task, I suppose, is to persuade TfL to agree a new route. Because a diversion of bus routes now going along Green Lanes would not be an option, I don't think that it would be necessary to survey the ladder roads beyond, say, Harringay Passage. However, the rail passengers at Hornsey Stn. should be consulted in addition to those using Harringay Stn.
Anyway, here is what I've received:
TfL London Buses are mostly hostile to agreeing new routes. The most important consideration is gathering credible evidence of sufficient demand (they are very difficult about conceding what constitutes sufficient demand).
You also need to have good answers about the impact a new route would have on existing services. If an existing route is to be diverted, how many existing passengers would lose out ?
Consequently, a well constructed house-to-house survey is necessary. I would say this needs to go into all the households not only along Wightman Road itself but on all the intersecting sidestreets which connect with Green Lanes, and indeed along both sides of Green Lanes itself. Since the new route would serve Harringay rail station, you could also find a way to survey rail passengers entering and leaving the station from the east side, and ask them whether a bus stop outside the station would be welcome.
However, you may end up finding out that diverting one of the routes along Green Lanes is a seriously unpopular proposal.
One of the reasons TfL dislike agreeing to new bus routes is that it involves the set-up and administration costs of a whole new bus contract to be franchised out. So it is always better to try to persuade them to adapt the existing network.
Two bus routes currently operate along Green Lanes, the road parallel to Wightman Road: the 29 (Trafalgar Square to Enfield Town) and the 141 (London Bridge Station to Palmers Green). A case could be made for routeing one of them via Turnpike Lane and along Wightman Road and returning to Green Lanes via Endymion Road. This would fulfil your residents' objective of getting a service connecting them to both Wood Green and (if the 29 route is chosen) Finsbury Park.
There might, however, be an uproar from 29/141 passengers used to boarding and alighting along Green Lanes - and my suspicion is that there might be more users on the main road than along Wightman Road.
However, there is an argument in favour of one of these key routes going past Harringay rail station: a new rail/bus interchange is a powerful reason for diverting one of them.
If all we are trying to do is get some kind of bus service on to some of Wightman Road, you may find it easier to persuade TfL to adapt a "little local service" like the W5 (Archway to Harringay Sainsbury's) rather than altering either major arterial/radial bus route.
The W5 could turn into Wightman Road from Endymion Road, take in Harringay Station, and then either run the whole length of Wightman Road to Turnpike Lane and back to Sainsbury's along Green Lanes; or, turn into one of the suburban side roads connecting to Green Lanes if a shorter route is thought more viable. I don't know these side streets, and fear they may be too narrow and cluttered both sides with residents' parked cars.
Not an easy problem to solve !
Apr 9, 2009
Old-Age-Emporium(OAE)
However 'hostile' TfL may be to initiating totally new routes, I think that's just what's needed rather than any diversion of W5 or other routes. As you both say: a lot of work.
Your proposed route has the advantage of travelling mainly virgin territory, therefore not greatly impinging on existing routes' business. The addition of the Campsbourne Estate loop (?and any similar poorly served estates/streets along Tollington Pk Rd ?) can only strengthen that argument.
I still think we need a shorter, slimmer bus model than the W4/W5 to convince all the car parkers of Wightman Road. That model originally designed for Jersey/Guernsey's narrow roads and used here and there on the 'mainland' might be the job. StephenBln might be the expert on that.
The door-to-door petitioning, though demanding, wouldn't be impossible once we're sure enough of what we want so as to bring some more of our HOL sceptics on side. I'm convinced there's enough residents, including some drivers, who would be glad to use a bus on your suggested route on a fairly regular basis.
Any ideas you have on a way forward? I know I have some persuading to do within WRN4RA for a start!
Eddie
Apr 20, 2009
Liz
Welcome back btw, missed you at the meeting. B2 and I had a right old set to (friends again)! And no one made me stay for just one more...
Apr 20, 2009
Old-Age-Emporium(OAE)
Apr 20, 2009
Old-Age-Emporium(OAE)
Apr 28, 2009
Liz
"Thanks, John. Though I hope this is one invitation I won't be able to accept.
Cllr Harry Lister has called this evening's meeting for 7pm - which is thirty minutes before the start of the first part of the Labour Group AGM. Among other things the AGM elects the Chief Whip for the Municipal Year.
I've now posted Cllr Lister's latest email, with my reply, here on Flickr.
You'll see that despite my asking several times, I still haven't had Cllr Lister's list of my nine Flickr pages he objects to. Perhaps it's just photos taken in daylight and fresh air he finds so scary.
He insists that I won't "get sight of the report" until 7 pm this evening. Which is a bit late to start writing a rebuttal, calling witnesses etc. So I'm assuming that this evening Labour councillors - the vast majority of whom are a decent hardworking bunch of people - will recognise this is a flagrant breach of the principles of Natural Justice, and won't let Lister's showtrial go ahead."
posted on Alan's own profile at 3.38, 12 May 2009
May 12, 2009
Steve Hatch
Jun 22, 2009
Julie
Jan 27, 2010
John D
Mar 15, 2010
Kamila
Apr 21, 2010
WightmanPaul
John,
Can't do meeting as have to work in evening. Pls let me know what is discussed.
Paul
Mar 29, 2011
matthew cuthbert
Ameba gives you total control over what your children watch by allowing you to preselect from thousands of educational and music themed shows; ...
amebatv.com/
could this really work, Joe thinks Nefertiti is a character from Scooby Doo, which at least is a start? sounds like an incentive to play more a watch less.
Aug 10, 2011
Lesley G
But having slept on it, I'll try to not take things too personally in future. Thank for the encouraging message.
Aug 9, 2012