Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
St Ann's LTN AKA Pedestrian ONLY Nightmare
Just gone through in detail the consultation associated with Low Traffic Neighbourhoods. The word Low seems to be a euphemism, no traffic neighbourhood seems to be the order of the day.
I do not understand where the council officers get their data. They state that the majority of residents do not own or use a car. So why is it so difficult to park even if you have a parking permit for the CPZ?
I have a disabled daughter and a wife with ME/Chronic fatigue and there will be no allowances for disabled access in either option. Roads are being shut to traffic, the surrounding area will be grid locked at times impacting the buses. With many of the roads having almost only one way in, how do they get deliveries and the refuse lorries in and around the area. The roads are too narrow for even a 7.5 tonne truck to turn around in. It will be difficult for cars to do three point turns.
I have lived in London since 1979, and in the borough since 1988 and in the St Ann's area since 1997. We have loved it. We raised both our children in the area and our disabled daughter (an adult now) has a support system in place.
We have asked for simple measures to make the roads safer without serious disruption to traffic flow. simple speed and weight limit enforcement would make a huge difference, but the council solution is an LTN which will drive a local garage out of business and make driving around the area almost impossible.
I am not in a minority of one, just come round the area and count the number of parked cars.
If this proposal goes through, I will have to take the early retirement I cannot afford and move away from the city I love.
Tags for Forum Posts: low traffic neighbourhoods, st anns ltn, traffic
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Don on
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That was a particular comment about St Ann’s, not the overall situation. I’ve put forward specific suggestions for actions that could be taken in Green Lanes and more widely by the council, but I believe the St Ann’s scheme is a cheap, tokenistic gesture in an area that already has very low traffic (hence “not broke”) that won’t help solve the borough-wide problem and will merely displace such traffic as there is onto already overcrowded roads. If the council is serious, it needs to tackle the GL/North Circular problem, electrify its vehicles, compel Veolia and others to do the same, put in lamp-post electric charging points and work with TfL to improve public transport rather than axeing bus routes. But all of these would cost real money, while installing planters in St Ann’s will be less effective but cost only peanuts.
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Sarah — The option A map looks as though it’ll actually create new rat-runs down Rowley and Ritchies roads as traffic prevented from using Cranleigh and Clarendon roads tries to get to/from St Ann’s and Green Lanes.
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Permalink Reply by Sarah on
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Totally agree. I am disabled myself - multiple sclerosis - and find active travel one of the best ways to manage my condition. I do not drive and do not want to. My license expired in April and I am still waiting for the medical team at the DVLA to consider my renewal application (submitted in Feb). Much easier to just avoid driving then!
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Can we correct the title of this post? Nowhere is there a pedestrian-only scheme proposed.
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What do you call road blocks that allow only pedestrians and cycles through?
I call it effectively Pedestrian only.
The general consensus from this forum, is that apart from Black Boy Lane, Avenue Road and Cornwall Road, this is a traffic quiet area. Woodlands Park Road has a problem with the school runs, but apart from that the roads are quiet. I know I walk down them and drive through them as a resident.
An LTN does not improve driver behaviour, traffic enforcement does. If you drive irresponsibly and get caught, eventually you will either stop or possibly get too many points on your license and lose it.
An LTN does not improve the behaviour of cyclists either, they will still cycle at speed on the footpath and get irate when you do not jump out of their way.
The point of my exercise was to start the discussion. And it has brought many things to light.
My thoughts from the general responses are that there is an anti car brigade, there is a group that believes that if it ain't broke don't fix it, there are is a middle group that considers that there are problems, but the current LTN proposal as documented is likely to cause as many problems as it solves.
There are particular problems with the school run, and not one response has a proposal for fixing that problem.
Driver behaviour can be moderated by CCTV traffic enforcement, including speed cameras and weight limit enforcement. This has ben requested for Black Boy Lane for a very long time.
Should the proposals be modified in line with the assurances I have received from a councillor, then the difficulties for residents in the LTN area can be alleviated. But this will not fix the overflow traffic on already congested roads that run North South and East West around the area.
There is no one size fits all, a solution that displeases the least people is appropriate.
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Vehicles will still have access to every street. There are no pedestrian only areas proposed.
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Extrapolated is a wonderful word that does not encompass statistical significance, which is a mathematical term.
If you have such a small sample to use, extrapolation is meaningless. You also need to consider the socio-economic factors associated with the insurance data (ie: who needs the insurance box to keep their premiums down).
The comments related to those that do not own cars is valid, but so are the hundreds of people that do own cars or have visitors that own cars. There was a set of proposals for St Ann's road. Come to the Black Boy Lane bus stops to see driver behaviour overtaking buses with vehicles coming the other way. It is so dangerous it frightens me. So why propose narrowing St Ann's Road and have the same lunatic behaviour there.
There is also a school of thought that we should ban all motorised vehicles and introduce stables.
The proposals for increasing crossings is more than reasonable.
Many of the journeys that I have taken on public transport involve multiple changes and very crowded conditions. I live with that because the journey I make has no other practical alternative. I have been on train stations where I cannot get on the train, and bus stops where I cannot get on a bus, the next one is just as crowded. There are TFL suggestions to increase Victoria Line tubes from Walthamstow Central and eliminate the starting point at Seven Sisters. Try getting on a tube at Seven Sisters in the morning then.
Today was a good example, West Green Road and Black Boy Lane were at a stand still. It was between 15:00 and 16:00. Many people are at work at this time, so for what purpose is this traffic. Could this traffic be from the school run, those people that want to reduce the traffic in their school streets but do not want to actually stop driving their kids to school.
There are many views on such proposals. Some make some people's life intolerable, some will make their life heaven. What happens when life changes and heaven is suddenly hell?
I have gone to the supermarket by bus. It is not a pleasant experience when the bus is busy and you have four or five large bags to carry and for which you need to have space. The problem is that with a family, three or four bags only lasts a day or two and you need to do it all again.
In the days when Tottenham Court Road was a Hi-Fi haven, I purchased hi-fi equipment and brought the equipment home on the tube and bus. Not exactly an easy experience along with the two to three hundred yards walk from the bus stop at the time.
Yes it is possible to manage without cars in our streets. It is also possible to manage without electricity, this country managed for hundreds of years without electricity. However, I don't think any of us would consider that now.
Many of the arguments are life style issues and choices, including mine. Do I want the lifestyle that is being proposed, not really, so leaving London may become a forced move.
Another lifestyle matter is, if I still had my older Morgan (before I had to change it for a four seater, to cater for my disabled daughter, who will never leave the nest), I would already be leaving London. I would not consider it an acceptable option to have to sell that treasured car just to meet the ULEZ demands while, every day, I watch and smell the fumes that spew out of the so called ULEZ compliant cars that have no post production test on emissions except the ones that all cars are required to meet (the MOT).
Do I care if a road I never use is blocked off, no. Should I care about those people who are troubled by having the road they use regularly blocked off, yes I should.
I leave you to all your own prejudices and hope that I have sparked some thought.
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You're spot on. And this is why we end up with Tory governments, the I'm alright Jack approach.
There is also the negative impact of destroying vehicles before their time is up, as most of the environmental impact is in creation and destruction rather than in running.
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"we should ban all motorised vehicles and introduce stables"
"this country managed for hundreds of years without electricity."
You caricature at your own expense showing a certain shortsightedness and bitterness no doubt due to very valid personal experiences.
If you have lived/visited in the Netherlands you can experience just how people "manage" in cities without relying 100% on cars - and many Dutch city dwellers do own cars. They just don't rely on them in the same way that people here do. They also own bikes and Dutch homes, including flats, are built with this in mind. City layouts have been reconsidered to allow shared space and not total dominance of the individually owned/used car.
With the advent of online buying, which I personally do not give priority to, the way in which deliveries are organised will also have to change with maybe smaller hubs and electrical delivery vehicles too ....
So a new paradigm shift will happen and we will not revert to 'no electricty', 'the horse and cart' or to living in caves. Just to hopefully a better and different, NEW way of doing things.
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