Harringay online

Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!

For HoLiners who would like to sign and support this Petition.

It asks the Council to support the call for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and

to divest its pension fund from companies complicit in the illegal occupation of Palestine and the ongoing military onslaught in Gaza. Thanks. 

https://www.change.org/p/haringey-council-stop-supporting-genocide-...

Note: this Petition is for people who live, work or study in Haringey.

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It's not a genocide. Had the IDF had that intention the war would have been over days after Hammas started it. Instead the IDF gave civilians warning of impending targets and ample time to evacuate. They've also let in aid and humanitarian relief which is incredibly risky due to the likelihood of weapons and other materiel being smuggled through (thus the lengthy checking timeframes). They're also taking great care to ensure their actions are targeted which is dufficult when Hammas uses civilian shields. During all of this Hammas and Hezbollah have continued to fire deadly rockets into civilian communities in Israel displacing thousands.

If there is a genocide in this war it is being perpetrated by Hammas, Hezbollah and their Iranian backers who have vowed for decades to wipe Israel and its inhabitants off the map (literally, not figuratively). 

And any warzone is a dangerous and unpredictable place. Aid workers know that. I have as much sympathy for them and their families as I do for the hostages, young Israeli soldiers and civilians on both sides.

Something that has puzzled me through this conflict has been the claim that Hamas is using its own civilians as human shields.  I have no idea whether this is true or not.  But it has a population density of 14,000 or so people per square mile, around the same as London.  There is no way that the targeted war that Israel claims it is carrying out cannot knowingly also produce massive civilian casualties.

Source please for density figures?
Thanks.

CIA factbook.  It’s average density for the entire territory and the town and cities are far more dense.

Thanks again, Michael.
Looking this up I found the same info in an Associated Press (AP) website which confirms what you posted.

Stats were never my strength, so I may be getting this very wrong. Doubts crept in as it appears that only the three most dense inner London Boroughs  match the AP Gaza stats. Maybe the figure is based on Inner London?

It a bit misleading Alan.  Most of the population of Gaza live in urban areas.  The density of Gaza City for example is over 42,000 per square mile.

It's targeted meaning that it's not the indiscriminate killing of civilians. They go to great lengths.to avoid civilian deaths in accordance with international law. For example, operations are delayed or avoided if civilian casualty numbers are too high (what is too high being determined subjectively by the bigger picture benefits such as saving a greater number of lives elsewhere). It's not a perfect science. It is a war, dangerous and unpredictable. As far as I can see Israel takes these responsibilities seriously as witnessed by the punishment of two Israeli officials who were assigned responsibility for the accidental deaths of the aid workers last week.

Hammas, Hezbollah and Islamic State do not play by those rules. They kill indiscriminately with little consideration of whether their operations hit the mark or whether they kill Israelo military personnel or civilians because they see no distinction they are simply Israelis/Jews/Zionists etc. Has anyone seen a Hammas commander sacked for killing innocent bystanders? In fact they celebrated the deliberate murder, torture and hostage taking of civilians (including women and children) with which they started thw war nearly six months ago.

It looks like Iran will more obviously enter the war at the end of Ramadan with the risk that we will be dragged in further as well. Are we prepared for political violence from the fifth columnists already here?

The groups you mention engage in terrorism and do not have my support.  Israel however is a nation and a signatory to all four Geneva Conventions.

Correct.

Why am I continuing to post in this thread? Why are other contributors doing so?

My hope is that some people may be reading it as helpful suggestions to shape their online exploration of facts-as-they-change and of online opinions-as-they-form. 
People want to challenge the International Court of Justice on "Plausible Genocide"?  Fine. Then go online to read and critique its judgement.

Or read and critique Kenneth Roth.
 https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/26/icj-ruling-is...

Or there's the report this week by Francesca Albanese, Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories.
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcoun...

About the argument that Hamas have always wanted genocide. Here's a new 30 minute interview where Norman Finkelstein is challenged by Marc Lamont Hill. It reminds us what happened when Hamas tried a non-violent demonstration .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELNr_ro97MI

As James O'Brien suggests there seems to have been a tipping-point where opinions have shifted.  It has become reasonable to suggests that the Israeli Government should stop. 

P.S.
A valued friend urged me to read this 5th April 2024 article by Jonathan Freedland.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/05/six-months-wa...

Gordon Farcas,

You've expressed your sympathy for "Aid workers . . . and their families  . . . for the hostages, young Israeli soldiers and civilians on both sides."
I agree and would hope that all members of HoL would agree too.

https://youtu.be/CuXDjLsF8e8?si=_Nwmen6JzETq1yzv&t=1210

But at the moment I don't see you suggesting any steps which might end this war. To avoid more killing and maiming; outbreaks of disease among the displaced Gazans; and in future repeated cycles of violence including what the Israeli army has called "mowing the lawn". As underlying political attitudes in "western countries" are clearly shifting isn't this the right time to try persuading our own elected politicians?

If Rafah becomes a graveyard isn't Israel's pariah status ensured? 

You also mention fears which I and many other people may share, of the war extending into nearby countries.

You ask if "we" are "prepared for political violence from the fifth columnists already here?"
Who are these "fifth columnists"?  What are you suggesting?

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