Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Lothair Road House Conversion
Originally this post was a notice about the weekly planning applications update. However, since it's turned into something more substantial, I've moved that notice elsewhere and am making way for this discussion to focus on a planning issue on Lothair Road.
Read on............
Read on............
Tags for Forum Posts: illegal conversion
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by TTTH on
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This case has now gone to appeal and can be found here on the government's planning portal:
http://www.pcs.planningportal.gov.uk/pcsportal/makerep.asp?caseaddr...
please add your objections
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Permalink Reply by Stuart on
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It's worth pointing out that the objections should be based only on the quality (or lack of) of the evidence. It is irrelevant whether or not this conversion is a breach of planning permission etc. All that is at issue is whether the Officer made the right decision that "on the balance of probabilities" the applicant has not shown that the house had been used as four separate bedsits for more than 4 years.
Alison - not sure what you mean but this decision (which I wasn't aware of until now) appears to be evidence that the planning department are now looking at COL applications (and particularly the evidence submitted) much more rigorously and with a new set of guidelines to help them. Which is the result of the work of a bunch of us (including Nora and Alan) liasing with the council over the last 6 months. And it's good news all round. I would be amazed if this decision was turned round on appeal - the evidence submitted is hopeless.
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Permalink Reply by Alison P on
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Bushy - yes, I meant it was interesting that the decision had been to reject when the planning officer you had spoken to was so sure that the evidence was fine. I'm really glad you interpret this as a positive sign that things are changing, that's what I hoped but wasn't sure about.
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Have done so. Interesting that they didn't grant a COL, given how sure about it the planning officer seemed to be.
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Permalink Reply by pamish on
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what about the council tax fraud? Wouldnt two flats always add up to more than one house?
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Permalink Reply by maggie on
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....and income tax fraud? I'm sure these dubious landlords find ways around paying their dues on their ill gotten gains.
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Yes of course - its been two flats since the late 1980s I think so that's a decade of paying council tax on one house rather than on two flats (which would certainly be more expensive).
Just seen a comment on this by Michelle - who has done the maths:
"Imagine how much has been saved by only paying one lot of Council Tax! Can Haringey do a retrospective collection for the missing Council Tax? If they are two Band C flats, they owe and additional £10,459, and if they are Band B they owe an additional £7,470 (at current rates)."
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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HoL think-tank comes up with another interesting idea.
----- Original Message -----
From : Alan Stanton, Tottenham Hale ward councillor
To : John Suddaby, Head of Legal & Monitoring Officer
Cc : Cllr Claire Kober
Sent : January 27, 2010
Subject : Admissions by residents that properties have not paid full Council Tax
Dear Mr Suddaby,
As you know I have been working with a group of local residents on the issue of dubious claims for Certificates of Lawfulness. Evidence presented to the Council often includes one or more Statutory Declarations claiming that a property has been divided into two or more flats for at least the previous four years - and sometimes far longer. However, in some cases where this evidence is accepted, Council Tax has not been paid on the number of separate flats later disclosed.
Several local residents have now suggested that the Council should claim arrears of this unpaid Council Tax. This seems an excellent idea, especially as the basis of the Council's claim would be the evidence of the person making the Statutory Declaration - usually the owner or former owner of the property or their agent. If they disputed the Council's claim they would have to admit perjury.
Could you advise whether the Council is able to make such claims for arrears? If Haringey does so? And whether other local authorities pursue such debts?
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P.S. Apologies for the silly error above. My computer clock was wrong. I wrote to John Suddaby today 28 January and after reading and picking-up comments on this thread.
By the way, I’m serious about HoL’s potential as an online think tank ─ when members pool information and ideas; and come up with new suggestions. Hugh made a similar point here.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Hatch on
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I second that Alan! We know that the site has many more people watching and reading, rather than actually posting and participating in conversations. Local journalist have proved this point, as well as others.
It's another good reason why more local people should bite the bullet and type a few words in order to voice an opinion... I can't help thinking this will inspire and encourage others to do the same.
Also, language, spelling and grammer, should not be a barrier, but I suspect it may be a factor. Maybe there could be a couple of wiki pages, or welcome mesages translated into different languages, this may encourage or enable some older members of different cultures within the community for example, to get their views across. It would be brilliant if a couple of volounteers would be willing to translate the odd email or two.
I digress... sorry back to Lothair Road - Planning, council tax, and parking office... They would all benefit from cross referencing IMO. There is a great deal of fraud in the area, and a bit of organising from Haringey council would solve so many of these problems.
Here is just one example of a huge failing... Estate/Letting Agents have to inform the Council with every change of tenant, Haringey Council constantly bill my office for tenants that have moved, despite us providing forwarding addresses and dates... My colleagues waste a rediculous amount of time on the phone to the council tax office through sheer incompetance on the councils part (harsh but true), I cannot put into words the rudeness we are often faced with, we just have to live with it... Never, ever, have we received a thank you for rectifying their mistake, let alone an apology.
We should really invoice them for our time, as we have not only met our liability in a responsible and organised fashion, but we then have to re fax and resend letters frequently.
On a few occasions we have even received threatening letters of impending court action, after all the above (bearing in mind we do not even own these properties).
Something about the system clearly doesn't work, and it all adds to the confusion, and that's why these flimsy bits of evidence for COL's cannot be easily or confidently challenged.
I hope someone in any position of authority at the council reads this post and has a bloody good think about it... it can't be that difficult with all the money spent on that database! They do some great work and then they go and..... Add your own answer!!! We could all fill in the blanks.
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We automatically produce a standard letter informing the council tax dept of the incoming and outgoing tenants. There really shouldn't be any excuses, I would say it is an internal problem with the way this information is processed!
Here is another example... A few weeks ago Haringey Council had forwarded our office details onto Bailiffs... They were claiming unpaid council tax plus a load of ramped up legal costs from us (the estate agent) who had offered an empty property for sale (Two years earlier).
It was an elderly couple who were both so frail they had to go into care! It took me no less than five letters to the bailiffs and several hours on the phone to sort it out. Once again I had to do the job for them, track down the previous owners family and get them to contact Haringey Council.
As I say some things they are good at, whilst other things have a very negative effect on the daily running of my business... very frustrating, so again, if anyone with any clout is reading this... sort it out please for all our sakes!
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Michelle, all good advice... and rather stupidly I haven't raised a formal complaint... this conversation has made me realise that I must, and persist with it too!
Everytime it happens it puts me so far behind with everything else, I always turn my thoughts to catching up and being positive... I begrudge spending more time chasing them, and it goes on my list, the one titled 'one of these days'. Which is very silly of me as it reoccures, and we start all over again.
I will definately do this now, no more nonsense.
Thanks for the advice and thanks for the nudge!
Housing benefit is a whole other subject... a minefield that I will not subject myself, or any of my responsible landlords to! Landlords can have money claimed back for upto six years after a tenant has moved on... How can you possibly work with that?
And I get to see many of these properties when Haringey Council (or some housing associations) hand them back to the owners after say a five year contract... I currently have a video of one that I have been asked to market... the family that owned the house were devastated to see the state of their former family home.
I won't post a link to the video as it links through to my website and it may be construed as advertising.... but I can assure you it's disgusting and I am doing my upmost to find a family to buy it (ideally) rather than another landlord, it just needs so much work, it's a little too much of a project for the average family.
Sorry slightly off subject.... back to Lothair Road
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