Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Local Representation Postponed?
Eons ago, before the mists of time, back at start of the year, it felt like we had some sort of functioning democracy in Harringay. It was by no means perfect and I've been critical of it in the past, but it was there and anyone who wanted to could have reasonable access.
Now, I'm starting to wonder what's happening. Our newly elected local representatives seem to be shunning open discussion on HoL, the GLSG dissolved itself, and now I've just received an email telling me:
The meeting of the Harringay and St. Ann’s Area Forum and Committee scheduled to take place on Monday 6th October has been postponed and will be held in early November. I will write to you again in the near future to inform you of the new date once it has been fixed.
As I said, it was far from perfect before, but at least it was there and I felt that I had an ability to have some sort of discourse with our representatives. I haven't yet worked out how much I care or how much difference the change in the status quo will make, but I'm pretty sure it should matter greatly to me.
(I've hesitated before punching the publish button on this because I neither intend nor want it to be the catalyst for an all-out assault on our local politicians. So, should anyone be moved to respond, balanced considered thoughts only please.)
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Protheroe O'Shea on
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Hugh, why do you think they are stunning this forum? I find it odd that they don't even respond to their own posts now.
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Well without wishing to sound too unbalanced, I think they have been asked not to post on this forum. Why? Because of all the kerfuffle created after the St Anns issue. Labour are running a very tight ship and are unwilling to screw up again . Disregarding Gina the councillors for the Harringay ward are novices and might make the odd faux pas by placing their thoughts on line. I could be mistaken though.
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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It's a thought that's been aired before. I can only hope it's not true. I think by and large in the past when the councillors were contributing, they weren't given a rough ride and everyone benefitted from the discourse.
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Permalink Reply by Mr Wodjacallim on
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Hugh
Perhaps one response to our political alienation is to publish something on HoL to measure politicians engagement with their electorate. Like less than three comments on HoL forums is at about the "Could be bothered level" , 3-10 could be at the mediocre level and over ten is politically engaged and connected !!!
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It's a good idea, Patrick. A few years ago, I think that would have carried sway, but as I wrote a few weeks ago, events since have showed us that it is primarily affiliations to and sentiments about national political parties that seem to determine local election results.
I think for a while the political establishment was discomforted by the idea that social media, the new kid on the block, may be a threat in that it would openly hold them to account. I'm afraid to say that my view at the moment is that it doesn't. They've learned that and so no longer feel compelled to engage as they did for a half decade or so. For this reason , I'm not convinced that a wall of shame would have any effect
I'm longing to be disabused on this gloomy outlook. So please anyone, tell me I've got it wrong, or perhaps you have a suggestion about how a new compact can be formed?
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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I'm not sure what this "threat" was supposed to be and the expected impacts.
With the collapse of LibDem support nationally in May it seemed likely that even the best-known, most hardworking LibDem councillors would be very vulnerable. Whether "being known" was about face-to-face contact or online didn't seem to cancel-out overall voting patterns in Haringey.
Nor, it seems, did a certain lack of enthusiasm on HoL for one or two individual local candidates - I'm trying to put this diplomatically - appear to give them significantly fewer votes.
Did residents in the imaginatively and elegantly renamed "Warehouse District" listen to John McMullan's excellent advice to register; and on how they might vote?
Plainly, nobody took the slightest notice of my own advice on voting only for candidates you'd spoken to and approved. Plus my heartfelt pleading on who to steer well clear of. Including those not worth the vapour from your micturation, let alone your vote.
On another thread, Pam Isherwood is dead right that online the Parties have reverted mainly to one-way broadcasting "at" us. When forced to "consult" and seek our opinion they'll pay consultants to tell is what it is.
But there are medium and longer games afoot. Which include Googling - along with its competitors in the search engine field. Plus the Way Back Machine and thousands more websites which record and give access to current data and past information and reports of campaigns. And even old photos of rubbish-strewn streets which speak full-colour truth to the smug, complacent, powerful nonentities who claim to deliver us the cleanest streets in London.
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The sad thing is we have a split borough. A Labour East and an SDP West. Both parties are disconnected from their electors which leads to a propensity to make unilateral decisions which don't go down too well with anyone.
Time to bring in another party that fills the void?
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My response to Mr Oliver Craxton (who he?) is in Phil K's Soaraway Sun. Way to go, Phil. Seriously, though, Phil's headline caught my eye first.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on
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You might consider in more detail want what you want exactly. To me it seems based on a false premise - that our reps represent us, act to improve Harringay and right wrongs. I don't think they can - it's too difficult.
What you might consider is, what is the end game? We want certain measurable things from this - let's make a list. We don't need the reps, we can go straight to Council Officers.
We're probably more effective at pulling the levers - the Cllrs are busy with their own agendas.
Maybe all we need is a mechanism to co-ordinate the work so that people don't burn out?
Put another way, what local issue can any local Cllr do better than us?
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"to me it seems based on a false premise - that our reps represent us, act to improve Harringay and right wrongs. I don't think they can - it's too difficult."
Right -let's check that premise by going to a LGA site:
http://www.beacouncillor.org.uk/whatdo/expectations.htm says
The councillor’s role and responsibilities include:
- representing the ward for which they are elected
- decision-making
- developing and reviewing council policy
- scrutinising decisions taken by the councillors on the executive or cabinet
- regulatory, quasi-judicial and statutory duties
- community leadership and engagement.
(and more where that came from)
Looks like they are supposed represent us. It also answers your question what can local cllrs do better than us - they operate in a context we aren't a part of (scrutiny). Leg work could be done for them, perhaps.
That it is next to impossible to be effective because it pays £10K in Haringey, so needs to be done on top of a day job, unless you're a housewife/pensioner/part timer
Should we have fewer councilors and use the money to turn it into a full time job, attracting more skilled candidates?
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Almost every post I've read on HoL for many years that addresses this topic rubbishes the political process and expresses the 'popular' HoL posters' view that the Cllrs with power (those in the majority) are rubbish - people go further and openly accuse them of having deep and sometimes sinister character flaws and snort at their supposed incompetence.
It seems that the 'HoL' posters' view is that the very fact that people stand for office instantly turns them into history's greatest monsters, with no regard paid or assessment of what they were doing before they took the government shilling.
The biggest howl seems to be based on the difference HoL posters perceive between what Cllrs 'should' do and what they actually do. HoL posters are judge and jury - they decide Cllrs are guilty as charged and seem to need no factual evidence. It seems to have been a deliberate policy of the political opposition in the borough (I'm thinking of Lib Dem leaflets) to stoke this fire, going so far as to depict politicians of today as being responsible for the 'failed' council of yesterday. Word's like 'outraged' are bandied about.
Put more simply - ask people on HoL if they have fulfilled these responsibilities:
- representing the ward for which they are elected
HoL posters' say Cllrs were all elected by a minority, do not talk to the majority so do not represent HoL posters' views.
- decision-making
HoL posters' say the Council makes the wrong decision all the time - this is perhaps the most consistent complaint - HoL posters' say the Council are doing it all wrong, although they rarely indicate what they would do, or seem to participate in opinion surveys, consultation etc
- developing and reviewing council policy
HoL posters' do not have much to say about policy - it's generally a long-term set of statements that take a degree of knowledge to comment on let alone disagree with. There is a general feeling expressed that the Council is wrong in everything they do - they're both far too left wing and far to right wing.
- scrutinising decisions taken by the councillors on the executive or cabinet
HoL posters' do not have much to say about scrutiny - I'd guess that 95% of them have never read a scrutiny report - they don't seem to want to put in the work of even reading studying any of the Council's voluminous output, let alone go to any meetings. Who here has ever attended a scrutiny meeting?
- regulatory, quasi-judicial and statutory duties
This is actually not really true - Cllrs carry responsibility but, as anyone would, they adopt the advice of the trained professionals they depend on and I guess that most of them would have little idea of what to do if not so advised, so this bit is almost invisible to almost everyone and so attracts no attention.
- community leadership and engagement.
HoL posters' openly deride any reports of these - it seems to be the thing they dislike most. They are convinced that Cllrs have failed and will always fail at both these tasks. If I were to post a report, say, of a Cllr performing what they described as 'Community Leadership' it would attract comments that almost stoop to hate-speech on HoL, 'proving' how hollow and duplicitous any Cllr who claimed anything was. It seems that the posters who do this have never met the Cllrs concerned and know almost nothing about them, but it doesn't stop anyone here it seems. IF I desrcibed, for instance, the Leader of the Council as leading, say, the 250,000 people who live here, I'd be shot down in a hail of derision. Should I suggest that one of our local Harringay Councillors was 'leading' the community, the vitriol would be just as prevalent.
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So, HoL posters are stuck between a rock and a hard place - they seem to 'hate' everything the council do for them yet demand that the council do everything for them.
The pattern seems to be based on this type of 'logic':
Issue: Too much rubbish left on the streets.
Diagnosis:Council incompetence - they're not doing their job properly.
Solution: Sack Veolia. Sack the Council. Sack the lot of them. Get rid of the consultants. Stop wasting money on things like 'Haringey People'.
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There are of course a lot of people who don't fall into the 'red mist' trap but they are people who do not aggressively assert a moderate view. The end result is that contentiousness breaks out around many issues (everything can be argued to be 'political') on HoL, fuelled by a core group of the most prolific posters - they seem to be setting the tone of the site, casting HoL in a Cllr-unfriendly light, giving good grounds for those who do not agree with the negativity to keep out it.
I don't think there's anything much wrong with Cllrs - we get the reps we deserve. Yes, Cllrs are flawed human beings, as we all are. Yes, the system is rigged against the common people. Yes we're being screwed left right and centre by the powerful - twas ever thus - abuse of power comes as no surprise.
The problem is with us. One voice really can change a room, one room a street. We just couldn't be bothered to get together and agree, organise our own lives, support and improve our own back yards - the very purpose this forum was set up to achieve.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
Unity is strength and we have divided and conquered ourselves.
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