Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
How Deep is my Pothole?
I tend to think I'm not a bad judge of potholes. I don't report every little dimple. So I was surprised that my report of potholes in Chesterfield Road N4 was not bad enough to meet the Council's "policy for Reactive Maintenance intervention levels".
Here are Council webpages with general pothole information and specific intervention levels. On carriageways it ranges from 50mm on principal roads to 60mm on unclassified roads. The exception is 25mm "where defects may be particularly hazardous to pedestrians/cyclists (such as pedestrian junctions and in or adjacent to kerbs and channels)" .
In future I'll try to bring my own measuring probes. In the meantime these potholes will be growing wider and deeper as vehicle wheels break up more road surface. So if you live nearby, please keep an eye open - and perhaps carry a tape measure - so you can re-report these before someone disappears down the hole.
Tags for Forum Posts: Haringey, hazards, intervention levels, potholes
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Raymond on
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The exception is 25mm "where defects may be particularly hazardous to pedestrians/cyclists (such as pedestrian junctions and in or adjacent to kerbs and channels)"
Cyclists are advised that they should not ride in the gutters as an aggressive vehicle could just force them into the kerb with the excuse that there was plenty of room to pass or that they did not see you at the edge of the road so a pothole anywhere in the road would be hazardous to cyclists.
There is the opposite problem too of roadworks that have been filled in too hastily and leave a big bump in the road which while annoying to a car [or local resident because of the noise] are potentially deadly to a cyclist because the lightness of a bike combined with its short wheelbase will make it more liable to be unbalanced.
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Permalink Reply by Bridget Hunt on
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I tripped on a pothole in a side road off West Green Road a couple of summers ago. (Had to walk behind a car waiting to turn into WG Road as it obviously contained far more important people than mere pedestrians so hadn't bothered to let people cross in front of it.) Anyway, I tripped on this bally pothole and went down on both knees, ripping my new white linen trousers to shreds in the process. My knees hurt so much that I actually went to A&E the following day and had one of them x-rayed but happy to report no break or crack. Took months to heal properly though.
So of course I reported it to the Council, hoping to at least get the cost of my trousers back from them. Yes, I can see you all sniggering but figured if it was brought to the Council's attention, maybe it would save someone more vulnerable than me from doing the same. I had photographs, both of the pothole and the knees (not a pretty sight at the best of times!!), which I sent to the Council. I received a "your enquiry is being investigated and we'll be in touch" response.
Shortly afterwards, I witnessed several men with some sort of measuring implement around the pothole, so knew something was being done. However, I then received another letter saying the pothole wasn't big enough for them to do anything about so my enquiry was closed.
Humph, I thought. Even double humph. The pothole is still there. Probably laughing at me. You all know what they're like...
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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Several men measuring the pothole? I wonder how much the cost of that compared to just filling it in? I don't suppose you had your cameraphone handy at the time so we can all see the happy scene? But maybe they were counting it so they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall?
By any chance, was your pothole deliberately dug by Banksy? Then it becomes an art installation and the Council should erect vented bullet-proof protective shielding all round it.
To be serious, Bridget, the good news seems to be that your particular pothole hasn't grown larger. Or has it? They usually do, as bits of roadway are crunched-up by car tyres. A process speeded-up when we get sub-zero temperatures and freeze-thaw. Intuitively, it seems that prevention may cost less then the eventual cure. I may be wrong.
But I'm curious. So if you'd like to post your old photo on HoL and give the exact location, I'll pop down with my plastic ruler and measure it.
(Tottenham Hale ward councillor)
P.S. If you find yourself next to a pothole, can safely measure it, but have forgotten your 60mm probe, one alternative is to use a stick. Take it home to do the measuring.
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Hi Alan
There was one guy with a clipboard, so I expect he was adding to his collection!! I know one of the Haringey Councillors, who told me that filling in potholes is an on-going nightmare. For example, there was a huge one in the road adjacent to the Tottenham Green Leisure Centre, with two to three smaller ones nearby (they breed too, don't you know!). The maintenance guys filled in the large one only - even though the councillor pointed out to them that they (a) had enough material with them to fill the small ones; and (b) it would cost more money to go out to do them when they became too big to ignore. Hey ho.
I've just checked my emails to see if I'd kept the pictures/emails but as it was summer 2011 and I did it from my office account, I've deleted them. It's the little road next to an estate agent - it's Portland Road. It's the one on the right just before the railway bridge and the pothole is on the far side, just over a car's length from the junction.
Love your comments re Albert Hall and the art installation!!
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I don't work for the Council, Thérèse. But yes, I am an elected councillor. (For Tottenham Hale ward).
However I'm unsure of your request. Are you asking for information about the entire borough? Or the street or neighbourhood where you live? Also, as I don't know your professional background I don't know how far you may already be familiar with key documents; how these works are funded; design principles adopted by Haringey etc.
If you want to know about plans for your own road, or a specific area and group of streets, then I'd suggest you make a list and request information about these streets or neighbourhood from the Directorate of Place and Sustainability.) (There is a list of "proposed" roadworks on the Council's website but it doesn't seem to have been updated since last year.)
Alternatively you can ask your own ward councillors to assist. There's a search page if you don't know who they are.
Your comment about Haringey's roads and pavements being a "total disgrace" makes me curious about which parts of London, in your opinion, - similar to the borough of Haringey in levels of funding - have succeeded in meeting the high standards you set. I'm always keen to visit and learn from other places.
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Thérèse, after reading a comment recently on HoL that the Ladder roads were to be resurfaced, I sent an enquiry to the council who wrote back to say that no Ladder roads were scheduled for resurfacing.
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Thérèse, the reason I mentioned your professional background, was not - as you seem to have assumed - because I think you are "an illiterate foreigner" who lacks "a specific level of intelligence to comprehend the Council's policies".
On the contrary, it is because many members of Harringay Online are professional planners, architects, urban designers, transport and management professionals etc. And - whether or not they are born in the UK - they know far more about these issues than I do. So it doesn't help if I'm telling them things they already know well.
I didn't understand your references to Icelandic banks and rent arrears. The innuendo about Cllr Gina Adamou has - as far as I know - no factual basis. I know that it's often repeated - sometimes by people I like and trust. But I have yet to see any evidence.
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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Thérèse: agree with the points you make, including timely warnings of the unusually high interest rates offered by the Ice banks.
Alan has mentioned Ponzi Schemes. It was bound to come up, wasn't it?
It's a most interesting subject of itself, but has as much to do with the council's selection of Icelandic banks – in which to deposit £37,000,000 of taxes – as it has to do with potholes. More on which, here:
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Thérèse, let's please stick to what I did type. Which wasn't: "are you a professional or not"?
As a councillor for fifteen years I take my share of responsibility for stupid Council decisions. Although the Icelandic bank fiasco was shared by 108 councils in England, Scotland and Wales - together with police authorities, fire services, and many charities. And of course if the Icelandic banks hadn't gone bust, all these Councils and other bodies would have been heavily criticised for not putting our money with the highest interest banks.
But the basic stupidity is that capitalism is full of Ponzi schemes, with the current difference between banks and betting shops that - very occasionally - you may get back more than your original stake with a betting shop.
About "that specific councillor" , please let's use her name. You mean Gina Adamou.
Two + two = 4. Sure. But with Gina it seems to me that people think it's five, or fifty, or any other number they fancy. I wonder how many of those who spread these rumours have ever spoken to Gina personally and asked her about it.
Or bothered to ask for the facts of who made the decision to renew the pavements? And whether or not she actually requested this? This is not about "defending Haringey" , or my Labour Party colleagues. It's about facts and fairness.
Just in case you were wondering, the pavements in my own road were replaced several years ago. And no I didn't request this. So were stretches of pavement in nearby roads. And yes I reported them.
Did I do it for an election? No. They were cracked and dangerous. I wouldn't insult people in Tottenham Hale by thinking I could buy their votes with paving slabs.
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Although the Icelandic bank fiasco was shared by 108 councils in England, Scotland and Wales - together with police authorities, fire services, and many charities. And of course if the Icelandic banks hadn't gone bust, all these Councils and other bodies would have been heavily criticised for not putting our money with the highest interest banks.
Alan, I think this is a gloss on an uneven surface and you manage to complete the gloss with the diversion of a general attack on Capitalism. (N.B. I make no defence of current banks or banking regulation under this or the previous lax government).
Let's put a heat-lamp on the high-gloss paint-job:
- The exposure of Haringey to Icelandic banks was – at £37,000,000 – if not the highest exposure of all local authorities, certainly amongst the highest
- Government guidelines were for a maximum deposit at any one bank of £20,000,000. The guidelines were intended to limit exposure and spread risk
- Permanent council officers would have been well aware of this and would have understood the reason for it
- How did Haringey manage to get such a high exposure? Answer: by following the letter and not the spirit:
- Haringey invested a little under the guide limit (£19,800,000) in Heritable Bank and then overspill into Landsbanki (£15,200,000 of tax money). The trouble is, this is effectively one bank because Heritable is a subsidiary of Landsbanki (the balance is made up by exposure to a second Icelandic bank - Glitner, a third name)
- The guidelines were interpreted without wisdom: who might have decided to get jiggy with the guidelines?
- Who was in charge of the Finance Department at the time with overall responsibility?
- Answer: the then Member for Resources, notorious for poor judgement, a gentleman whose identity I need hardly remind you.
- Who put that councillor in charge of this vital department (and indeed, of the whole council for 24 months): Answer: vote of the council majority group. After a four-month suspension over an unrelated matter, this Group welcomed him back.
- Public money needs to be treated with the greatest responsibility and there were warnings about the significantly higher interest rates offered by the Icelandic banks. You don't have to have worked in the heart of Capitalism to understand the timeless guideline: the higher the return, the higher the risk.
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Clive, into a discussion thread on potholes you pour some old news about Icelandic banks; plus sideswipes about Cllr Charles Adje. Who, whatever his sins of commission and omission, was hardly responsible for the banking collapse. Why not start a separate discussion thread?
The first question you might like to answer on the new thread is whether you really fail to see any similarities between Ponzi schemes and banking crises triggered by the accumulation of debt based on valueless assets?
I also suggest that - just this once - you try to overcome your reluctance to read anything you disagree with. Or dismiss it as a "distraction". And take a look at some recent books and articles on Debt.
For instance, our friend Mary Mellor has written "The Future of Money". Mary had a recent letter in the Guardian. And there's a video here.
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Alan it wasn't me that first put Iceland into your potholes and I didn't mention your erstwhile colleague's name. However, I did feel that your waving away responsibility for Haringey's frozen fortune was surprising.
£37,000,000 would fix a lot of potholes (and other problems) and I think you may have tripped up over one of your own making. In my above analysis that you disregard, I failed to expand on the most misleading point:
And of course if the Icelandic banks hadn't gone bust, all these Councils and other bodies would have been heavily criticised for not putting our money with the highest interest banks.
The reason I suggest this is misleading, is due to this evidence:
UK 'ignored Iceland bank warning' (BBC story)
Banking crisis: Councils 'ignored warnings over Icelandic bank' (Telegraph)
And if you put the following search terms into Google you'll find a few more similar suggestions:
icelandic bank warning OR warnings council OR councils
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