Harringay online

Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!

How can we get our local politicians and other public servants to post regularly in this forum?

I've been asked by a shyer member to put up this topic in the hope that more people will contribute their ideas and strategies, inspired by Michael Andersen's post:

Why do so few HoL members post on this site?

I think many of us want to be able to ask them stuff directly on this site (a sort of 'virtual surgery') and get a timely reply.  I'd extend that to Council Officers too. For the politicians, I suppose there are two sorts of posts we might want to make:

a) 'Business' questions/comments about things like why everyday services are not up to scratch etc.  We might have to ban things that really ought to be reported using the Councils reporting facilities, because they can't have an official and an unofficial system for dealing with litter or whatever is counter-productive. Politicians are supposed to be a conduit to power though and if we get together and press for things here and they are 'on duty' then we as a band of locals can work for beneficial change more effectively online than anywhere else. Hugh's Cash Mob for instance is an example of direct, local action that surely Cllrs want to and should be involved in - HoL discussions can create actual local change:

b) 'Political' questions about wider issues like going to war - should that be limited to our MP's though?  Do you want to read non-ward-specific views from your ward Councillor over matters they have no real control over?  The Council can declare the borough a 'Frack-Free Zone' which is an international issue, so it's not as if they are powerless but you know what I mean.

Issues like whether or not there should be cuts or could we not use our savings and borrow against our future wealth as it's so expensive and damaging to cut, cut, cut are relevant to local issues. With so little money and so many in poverty in the East - how can the rich West expect political support for even a single penny? Some Cllrs in the past have, for instance, refused to enact central government cuts and as far as I recall went to prison for it, provoking a law that means they can't simply refuse what Whitehall orders. The Chief Exec of Barnet has now moved jobs to be the Chief Exec of Haringey - do we want to create content that makes local political points as a spur to action?:

So, are those the sorts of discussions we want to have here with our reps and between ourselves?

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Some UK politicians are very 'internet-savvy'. So as to try to take the measure of our politicians, here are some Councillors who are digital award winners:

Cllr Melvyn Caplan, Westminster City Council was the driving force behind the Tri-Borough’s Customer Led Transformation Programme. This encouraged the adoption of new technologies internally, such as interactive and collaborative meeting room tools and the incorporation of mobile and tablet devices into council work, saving over £1m across the council 

Cllr Muhammed Butt, London Borough of Brent led a transformation of the way that Brent Council operates, incorporating social media into its communications, along with live-streaming of council meetings. By making digital innovation central to the council’s activity, Cllr Butt has helped to ensure that technology is utilized to protect and enhance essential services.

Cllr Stephen Canning, Braintree District Council developed and supported the concept of ‘Braintree hour’ on twitter, which encourages the promotion of local businesses to the community, as well as building community cohesion. The scheme has spread to other council throughout the region.

Cllr Theo Blackwell, London Borough of Camden lead LB Camden’s first digital strategy, encouraging collaboration and new thinking across the council, as well as building partnerships with business. Innovations at the council include coding of after school clubs, expanded public wi-fi access, peer-to-peer lending schemes, and digital inclusion work in social housing.

Cllr Tom Sleigh, City of London Council ran a successful online campaign to reinstate rubbish bins in the City of London, twenty years after they were removed following terrorist activity. He launched a similar campaign to reduce speed limits to 20Mph across the City, using social media, surveys, and innovative methods of sharing information.

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Salford Council has put HoL-like facilities on their own website - would things like this not be better:

Current discussion forums on this website:

As we know that our local politicians don't post here, I'd like to simulate what our councillors/politicians might argue if they did actually post here:

1) It is a relatively low-paid job (starting salary £10,500) and there are literally thousands of meetings to go to - each ward in Haringey, for instance, has loads of community events (many in the evenings) which local Cllrs feel obliged to attend.  Apart from the work of attending numerous policy meetings and dealing with people's problems by chasing Council Officials, most Cllrs put in way more hours than they're supposed to - most have second jobs too I think, some full-time.  So, time spent HoL-typing is a dereliction of their duty to put themselves in front of local people and listen, then take up the issues raised by the face-to-face contacts they say are the only way to do 'real' politics. Be good to see a breakdown of how they spend their time on our behalf.

2) Politicians are 'people people' - all the way up the chain the paramount interaction is always stressed as being 'talking to people', even Cabinet Ministers regularly knock on doors apparently. I think this is an excuse and simply untrue today anyway. Many of the older ones just don't 'get' the internet. Claiming to be 'in touch' with the electorate gives them the chance that they often take to say 'people tell me' or 'my constituents think' when the human truth is that most politicians hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest. Ask them what the main issues are in their wards and they cite things that others would prioritise differently - it's a matter of opinion - they are not accurate surveyors - they could be better at quantifying views. Considering the main things they ignore specifically:

  • Facebook: they don't consider it worth posting to Facebook for instance whereas many here would probably think they ought to. What would be better on Facebook here than there?  Many have the problem that they've already got a 'personal' Facebook page so are stuck with converting it to a 'public' page, which exposes their 'real' friends to a wider exposure than they signed up for.  Almost none of them know how to post in one place and have it 'syndicated' - they are not generally techophiles.
  • Twitter: many councillors do tweet, with the result that we are drowning in Tweets that nobody really looks at and no-one outside their circle ever responds to, so this is proof in their eyes that digital is only for people with time on their hands. We could tweet our Cllrs and they would probably react, but why don't we do that? From a Cllrs point of view, trying to plan how you spend your time must be close to impossible as residents can pop up at any time 24hrs a day with an issue you need to respond to.
  • Blogs: lots of work for very little measurable return. You try writing even one paragraph of political comment - it could take you all afternoon,  Risk that what you wrote might accidentally come back to haunt you or worse, that nobody at all would even bother to read it. Fierce competition from great political bloggers could make yours look pathetic.  You're imposing a liability on future Cllrs to match your output - they won't thank you for that.
  • Newsfeeds - how would it be if a Cllrs auto-posted a newsfeed of all their activities on HoL (say auto-posting their tweets for instance) - do we want that? Wouldn't it be seen as a cynical bit of advertising? Would anyone subscribe to it?

4) Political posts on HoL attract 'history's greatest monster' type vitriol - people make virulent, unsubstantiated personal attacks on the character of local politicians they've never met, often barging into a topic and steering it towards hatred, racism etc.  Any politician who posts here risks a shed-load of this sort of horrible stuff from us - what's in it for the politician?  They'd need an army of clerical help to unpick each accusation and debunk it and none have that resource - if they had they'd spend it otherwise.

5) Geographically HoL is limited to Harringay. Bounds Green has an excellent HoL-type forum for example, so why would anyone from round there post here? We all know that this site reaches all of Haringey (alright, there's better coverage of the West of the borough, but it could have a lot more Eastern stuff if people would bother) but they will say the clue's in the name. There is no one forum for the whole of Haringey and why should there be?  There are no politicians who represent the whole of Haringey (discounting the 'ruling' party on the Council) - it's split by two MP's and lots of ward councillors. So, how would it work, a 'Tottenham' section on HoL for instance?

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To remind you, our local politicians are:

Tottenham: Incumbent: David Lammy MP(Labour)

prospective: any?

Hornsey and Wood Green: Incumbent: Lynne Featherstone MP(Liberal Democrat) 

Prospective: Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green,Labour):

any others?

Haringey Councillors:

Councillor
Photograph
Councillor
Political party
Ward
photo of Councillor David Beacham

Councillor David Beacham

Work mobile: 07528 443838

Work: david.beacham@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Alexandra
photo of Councillor Liz McShane

Councillor Liz McShane

Work mobile: 07812 677729

Work: liz.mcshane@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Alexandra
photo of Councillor James Patterson

Councillor James Patterson

Work mobile: 07812 677720

Work: james.patterson@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Alexandra
photo of Councillor Clare Bull

Councillor Clare Bull

Work mobile: 07812 677743

Work: clare.bull@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Bounds Green
photo of Councillor Joanna Christophides

Councillor Joanna Christophides

Work mobile: 07854 544697

Work: joanna.christophides@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Bounds Green
photo of Councillor Ali Demirci

Councillor Ali Demirci

Cabinet Member for Planning

Work: 020 8489 2964 (office)

Work mobile: 075408 54293

Work: ali.demirci@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Bounds Green
photo of Councillor Joseph Ejiofor

Councillor Joseph Ejiofor

Work mobile: 07940 005507

Work: joseph.ejiofor@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Bruce Grove
photo of Councillor Stuart McNamara

Councillor Stuart McNamara

Cabinet Member for Environment

Work: 020 8489 2687 (office)

Work mobile: 07854 544696

Work: stuart.mcnamara@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Bruce Grove
photo of Councillor Felicia Opoku

Councillor Felicia Opoku

Work mobile: 07812 677717

Work: felicia.opoku@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Bruce Grove
photo of Councillor Jason Arthur

Councillor Jason Arthur

Cabinet Member for Resources and Culture

Work: 020 8489 2964 (office)

Work mobile: 07812 677736

Work: jason.arthur@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Crouch End
photo of Councillor Natan Doron

Councillor Natan Doron

Work mobile: 07815 700588

Work: natan.doron@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Crouch End
photo of Councillor Sarah Elliott

Councillor Sarah Elliott

Leader of the Opposition

Work mobile: 07812 677730

Work: sarah.elliott@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Crouch End
photo of Councillor Patrick Berryman

Councillor Patrick Berryman

Work mobile: 07812 677741

Work: patrick.berryman@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Fortis Green
photo of Councillor Martin Newton

Councillor Martin Newton

Home: 020 8489 4005

Work: martin.newton@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Fortis Green
photo of Councillor Viv Ross

Councillor Viv Ross

Work: 0208 444 9516

Work: viv.ross@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Fortis Green
photo of Councillor Gina Adamou

Councillor Gina Adamou

Work: gina.adamou@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Harringay
photo of Councillor Emine Ibrahim

Councillor Emine Ibrahim

Work mobile: 07812 677724

Work: emine.ibrahim@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Harringay
photo of Councillor James Ryan

Councillor James Ryan

Work mobile: 07812 677710

Work: james.ryan@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Harringay
photo of Councillor Clive Carter

Councillor Clive Carter

Work mobile: 07812 677737

Work: clive.carter@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Highgate
photo of Councillor Bob Hare

Councillor Bob Hare

Home: 020 8348 2710

Work mobile: 07870 157703

Work: bob.hare@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Highgate
photo of Councillor Liz Morris

Councillor Liz Morris

Work mobile: 07818 094573

Work: liz.morris@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Highgate
photo of Councillor Adam Jogee

Councillor Adam Jogee

Work mobile: 07812 677723

Work: adam.jogee@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Hornsey
photo of Councillor Jennifer Mann

Councillor Jennifer Mann

Work mobile: 07812 677727

Work: jennifer.mann@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Hornsey
photo of Councillor Elin Weston

Councillor Elin Weston

Work mobile: 07812 677 711

Work: elin.weston@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Hornsey
photo of Councillor Mark Blake

Councillor Mark Blake

Work mobile: 07812 677738

Work: mark.blake@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Muswell Hill
photo of Councillor Pippa Connor

Councillor Pippa Connor

Chair of Adults and Health Scrutiny Panel

Work mobile: 07812 677734

Work: pippa.connor@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Muswell Hill
photo of Councillor Gail Engert

Councillor Gail Engert

Home: 020 8489 4005

Work: gail.engert@haringey.gov.uk

Liberal Democrats Muswell Hill
photo of Councillor Peray Ahmet

Councillor Peray Ahmet

Work mobile: 07812 677735

Work: peray.ahmet@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Noel Park
photo of Councillor Denise Marshall

Councillor Denise Marshall

Work mobile: 07812 677721

Work: denise.marshall@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Noel Park
photo of Councillor Alan Strickland

Councillor Alan Strickland

Cabinet Member for Housing and Regeneration

Work: 020 8489 2964 (office)

Work mobile: 07854 481050

Work: alan.strickland@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Noel Park
photo of Councillor Kaushika Amin

Councillor Kaushika Amin

Mayor of Haringey

Work mobile: 07977 562105

Work: kaushika.amin@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Northumberland Park
photo of Councillor John Bevan

Councillor John Bevan

Work mobile: 07967 336448

Work: john.bevan@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Northumberland Park
photo of Councillor Sheila Peacock

Councillor Sheila Peacock

Work mobile: 07967 336234

Work: sheila.peacock@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Northumberland Park
photo of Councillor Dhiren Basu

Councillor Dhiren Basu

Work mobile: 07971 804722

Work: dhiren.basu@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Seven Sisters
photo of Councillor Joe Goldberg

Councillor Joe Goldberg

Cabinet Member for Economic Development, Social Inclusion and Sustainability

Work: 020 8489 2687 (office)

Work mobile: 07794 218566

Work: joe.goldberg@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Seven Sisters
photo of Councillor Claire Kober

Councillor Claire Kober

Leader of the Council

Work: 020 8489 2241

Work: claire.kober@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Seven Sisters
photo of Councillor Barbara Blake

Councillor Barbara Blake

Chair of Environment and Community Safety Scrutiny Panel

Work mobile: 078126 77740

Work: barbara.blake@haringey.gov.uk

Labour St Ann's
photo of Councillor Peter Morton

Councillor Peter Morton

Cabinet Member for Health and Wellbeing

Work: 020 8489 2964 (office)

Work mobile: 07812 677713

Work: peter.morton@haringey.gov.uk

Labour St Ann's
photo of Councillor Ali Gul Ozbek

Councillor Ali Gul Ozbek

Work mobile: 07812 677716

Work: aligul.ozbek@haringey.gov.uk

Labour St Ann's
photo of Councillor Tim Gallagher

Councillor Tim Gallagher

Work mobile: 07812 677728

Work: tim.gallagher@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Stroud Green
photo of Councillor Kirsten Hearn

Councillor Kirsten Hearn

Chair of Children and Young People Scrutiny Panel

Work mobile: 07583 119123

Work: kirsten.hearn@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Stroud Green
photo of Councillor Raj Sahota

Councillor Raj Sahota

Work mobile: 07812 677709

Work: raj.sahota@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Stroud Green
photo of Councillor Isidoros Diakides

Councillor Isidoros Diakides

Home: 020 8340 8477

Work: isidoros.diakides@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Tottenham Green
photo of Councillor Makbule Gunes

Councillor Makbule Gunes

Work mobile: 07812 677722

Work: makbule.gunes@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Tottenham Green
photo of Councillor Bernice Vanier

Councillor Bernice Vanier

Deputy Leader and Cabinet Member for Communities

Work: 020 8489 2241 (office)

Work mobile: 07817 954961

Work: bernice.vanier@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Tottenham Green
photo of Councillor Vincent Carroll

Councillor Vincent Carroll

Work mobile: 07812 677739

Work: vincent.carroll@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Tottenham Hale
photo of Councillor Lorna Reith

Councillor Lorna Reith

Home: 020 8376 2310

Work: lorna.reith@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Tottenham Hale
photo of Councillor Reg Rice

Councillor Reg Rice

Work mobile: 07854 002078

Work: reg.rice@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Tottenham Hale
photo of Councillor Eugene Akwasi-Ayisi

Councillor Eugene Akwasi-Ayisi

Work mobile: 07812 677732

Work: eugene.akwasi-Ayisi@haringey.gov.uk

Labour West Green
photo of Councillor Eddie Griffith

Councillor Eddie Griffith

Work mobile: 07870 157701

Work: eddie.griffith@haringey.gov.uk

Labour West Green
photo of Councillor Toni Mallett

Councillor Toni Mallett

Work mobile: 07870 157883

Work: toni.mallett@haringey.gov.uk

Labour West Green
photo of Councillor Charles Adje

Councillor Charles Adje

Chair of Housing and Regeneration Scrutiny Panel

Home: 020 8800 7658

Work: charles.adje@haringey.gov.uk

Labour White Hart Lane
photo of Councillor Gideon Bull

Councillor Gideon Bull

Chair Overview & Scrutiny Committee

Work mobile: 077995 86111

Work: whl@gideonbull.co.uk

Labour White Hart Lane
photo of Councillor Anne Stennett

Councillor Anne Stennett

Work: public no - 020 8815 9208

Work mobile: 07854 002675

Work: anne.stennett@haringey.gov.uk

Labour White Hart Lane
photo of Councillor George Meehan

Councillor George Meehan

Work mobile: 07967 336120

Work: george.meehan@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Woodside
photo of Councillor Ann Waters

Councillor Ann Waters

Cabinet Member for Children and Families

Work: 020 8489 2687(office)

Work mobile: 07854 002470

Work: ann.waters@haringey.gov.uk

Labour Woodside

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Please, please don't make personal comments about their views, conduct, strengths, failing etc - this is a discussion about how and why we can get them to be active participants on HoL, not a chance to lambaste/praise them.

Tags for Forum Posts: Catherine West, David Lammy, Lynne Featherstone, MP, democracy, engagement, involvement, local politics

Views: 5121

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Replies to This Discussion

So we agree that your rights have been ceded, OK?

Do you agree that you should pay your taxes, even though some of those taxes will be spent on things you object to?

Take the public libraries, some people are of the opinion that they should not be paid for from the public purse.

If your Library closes against your wishes, are you part of a community responsible for the lack of libraries, or not?

You think you bear no responsibility, is that right?

"So we agree that your rights have been ceded, OK?"

Yes.

"Do you agree that you should pay your taxes, even though some of those taxes will be spent on things you object to?"

Sure.

"If your Library closes against your wishes, are you part of a community responsible for the lack of libraries, or not?"

It depends. That assumes a single community. I don't subscribe to that simplistic world view. People tend to be part of multiple, independent communities. So, no, probably not.  If it was the party I voted for that did this, then clearly yes.

"you have ceded rights to your representative, whilst remaining responsible for their actions."

Where does this concept/political contract come from?  Did you make that up?

My emails and letter to David Lammy have been nothing but courteous and respectful. All of what I have said is demonstrable. David Lammy HAS responded to petitioners. He informed me that he supports Israel in its right to bomb Gaza(I have the email) He also supported the Iraq war and voted against the inquiry into it. I don't have a personal grudge against him at all, I just wish he would speak against injustice and austerity, but he supports both. Bernie Grant, his predecessor was such an MP. He campaigned against the framing of the Birmingham Six, at no personal benefit to himself, and was a thorn in the side of the Labour establishment. There was a proper MP. Lammy has achieved nothing, and has failed the people of Tottenham.

You write as if you were stating facts, but you're stating opinions you've created out of thin air to make damning accusations - why?

Imagine if you posted any of this stuff to, say, Wikipedia - it's all get erased as simply contentious.  There's almost no point in having generalised opinions like this - it really doesn't matter and doesn't help. MP's are people and people are not consistent, they are too complex to be summed up in single phrases.

Also, do our reps have a right to be mistaken?  To be wrong-headed?  If so, what percentage of their views and beliefs are obliged to be 'right-thinking'?  80%? Are they allowed to have bad months?  To be a little crazy?  To be inconsistent?

I like Eddie Izzard and he might very well stand for election in future - I'd vote for him! 

Both Philip & I have had interactions with the MP.

Our opinions aren't coming from thin air but from his responses and voting actions.

Yes, they're allowed to be wrong but don't expect forgiveness... Government works too slowly to make corrections quickly so the damage to peoples lives can be massive. Therefore a higher standard applies. I'm not okay with screwing over generations of people because of a mistake.  The war on drugs being one. Anyone that sustained that nonsense is partly responsible for a crime against humanity.

I'd probably vote Eddie Izzard too, though Wolmar looks interesting.

Have you see this research, Chris? 

For me, still the best councillor use of a local forum is by James Barber in East Dulwich.

And there's a strong correlation between more positive perceptions of politicians and public servants and their use of discussion websites. In 2010 when this study was done, HoL had very high participation by the local police (PC Glyn Kelly) and low participation by councillors. With the other two websites, the situation was reversed. James Barber was very active on the East Dulwich forum. With council officers, the other two websites had limited participate from one or two senior council officers, HoL had very little. The change in attitudes found maps directly on to that.

So despite politicians fears, it pays dividends in terms of reputation. However, in the two elections since the study was conducted, no evidence was fond that it influences voting intentions. In thinking about the question you pose, Chris, certainly some food for thought there.

My take on it is that if you're a serving politician and you have any place (online or off) that the people you serve regularly gather to discuss issues relevant to your role, you have a moral duty to take part. I thought many of the 2010-2014 batch of councillors didn't do badly. The current trend for the new group seems to be a failure to participate. That leaves the main interactions they have with those they serve as being with the tiny minority who either attend area assemblies or councillors surgeries. It IS a really pity. I currently have no idea what any of our local councillors are doing on our behalf and what stances they take on the local issues of the day. 

Thanks Hugh - I'm glad to know more about means of measuring effects.

>>no evidence was fond that it influences voting intentions

Yes but you and I know instinctively that it does, don't we?

Politicians are surely interested in making people aware they exist. We know 40% of us don't vote in Haringey and so many people I meet cannot name a single one of their three local ward Cllrs and have crazy ideas as to what they're for. They blame them as if it were Cllrs themselves who should be out here emptying bins and, as they're not, they're clearly rubbish at being Cllrs.

People may claim to select because a Cllr is 'hard working' but that's not true in my experience.  One of the Cllrs (the excellent Lyn Weber, an Independent) here in Crouch End was effective, extremely hard working, visible and universally respected for those qualities as far as I could detect yet didn't get re-elected in May, not even coming close.

I understand that the Lib Dems have plenty of money and certainly seem to have spent loads in Haringey judging by the difference in the quality of the various leaflets that came through my door, and were fierce door-knockers for years here - out-knocking all the other parties by a huge margin yet they lost big-time in May, so I don't think propaganda or doorstepping work either.

I think it's maybe true, as has often been said, that people vote 'one third local, two thirds national'. If anyone sees a politician who is in the public eye, that person 'becomes' their party and they vote for the values they detect in them.  PMQ's for instance, tend to give the incumbents more benefit. Caroline Lucas, who I think gets more exposure than her voter base merits, seems like a thoroughly decent, lovely person who broadcasts a sort of 'green wellness' that surely causes anyone who comes across her to want to vote Green.

In other words, just being exposed to your candidate's values is what makes you vote for them - that's why they're all in love with meeting people but they fail to get those values across.

The web is a place for the propagation of values and that's intensely political.   It provides an efficient way of getting exposure for your values and creating a direct impression that reaches far, far more potential voters than door-knocking ever could at practically zero cost.  Not to mention garnering more donations - many people will donate to your cause who would not pay you at the door or come to your events.

Most Cllrs I've met around here are pretty much ordinary people (as they should be) with the courage to stand up, fight for what they think is right and be counted. As such, their mastery of this harsh medium is low and they're afraid of it.  That's why they don't use it.

It's partly a generational thing but a surprising number of young Cllrs are not into the net either - it's part of the 1st world political culture that insists that 'real' politics is done face-to-face. The other classic method we all suffer is the 'pravda-like' broadcasting 'spin' the centre emits:

In these days of good-quality video cameras in phones, it wouldn't take much setup to equip Cllrs to be a 'roving reporters'. The exposure that would gain them would surely lead to them being regarded as politically successful - that's when the politicians will start using HoL in numbers, when one or two begin to up the ante by using the web to get noticed, making it more or less mandatory to be web-savvy in politics. Who's going to be first round here?

Instinctively, you would think that a solid record of online (and offline) activisim and interventions would effect voting, but I have a number of reasons for strongly believing the effects are minimal, at least in local politics.

I think most people have such a low awareness of local politicians and how local politics works that voting tends to reflect people's reaction to national politics. Only in the minority of cases do I think that people vote for a particular individual or local party.

What I have observed both in Harringay and HoL and in doing the research on other local websites backs this up. Prior to the 2010 election, James Barber was very present both online and off and there was very high awareness of him and what he did. In the 2010 elections however, there was no discernible effect on his vote compared to the hyperlocal, local or regional pattern.

The same lack of effect was seen in the 2014 elections in Harringay. Sad perhaps, disappointing certainly, but I think, true. Yet who knows, things are constantly changing. So if I were a local politician, I wouldn't be taking it for granted that this situation is part of an unchanging status quo.

Hang on, that's a doom-laden claim - can we try and be a bit more objective?

Below are the 2014 election results for the Harringay ward of Haringey:

Name of Candidate Party Votes Elected
ADAMOU Gina Labour Party 1,683 Yes
ALEXANDER Karen Jane Liberal Democrats 1,182
BURLAND Patrick Trade Unionists and Socialists Against Cuts 165
CUTHBERT Matthew James Green Party 657
IBRAHIM Emine Labour Party 1,372 Yes
KAPLAN David Trade Unionists and Socialists Against Cuts 219
KAUR Asha Liberal Democrats 878
PATEL Kan Trade Unionists and Socialists Against Cuts 132
RIVERS Sean Conservative Party 219
RIVLIN Lydia Conservative Party 212
ROSSINI Massimo Conservative Party 200
RYAN James Andrew Labour Party 1,395 Yes
SCHMITZ David Reuben Liberal Democrats 1,139
SMITH Tristan James Law Green Party 572
SMITH-JEFFERYS Kerry Frances Green Party 558

Percentage turnout: 40.52%

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There were what, 10,500 votes cast in Harringay in May?  

Emine's 1372 votes, for instance. She does post on HoL, but how can anyone possibly say that HoL affected any of her votes in a secret ballot? What about the effect Emine has on voters in other wards who form an impression of her party from her conduct and the responses she provided?

How can we say how many of her votes came from those voting for her party because of the national policies advocated? How many because of her local presence? Knowing her, I'm guessing that she was very active visiting people at home - how many were convinced to vote for her who otherwise would not have had they not met her?

If we knew, for instance, that she had 1,000 contacts with 'swing' voters (she might tell us if we asked) - that's a huge amount (I don't think the parties bother with those they know will vote for them). How many of those did she persuade who would not otherwise have voted for her?

Could be so small a number as to be undetectable. If her presence on HoL had an equally small effect, it would be equally undetectable. The difference is the huge amount of time spent to obtain the extra votes!

Let's imagine that Gina did no internet stuff at all.  Did the people who voted for her also vote for Emine? If so, does that mean that Emine got in on the back of Gina's campaign?

Be good to find a way of quantifying it.  How about we al split the entry fee and you stand for the next one on a Pirate Party platform Hugh and we see how many votes you get?

I'd vote for (stolen from another party):

a 99p coin

luminous pet food

I reckon you'd get at least 300 votes - it's the HoL effect!  You could do it each time and we've have a 'control group' of results...

There's no doom here, Chris, only facts and their interpretation. 

I wouldn't use any data as it relates to Emina since she only made two posts on HoL prior to 2014 and I don't recall being aware of her at many community events prior to 2014 (She may have been there unrecognised, but travelling 'incognito' should count as absence for our current purposes). So she cannot be said to have much of a 'community track record' that would have affected her vote

Gina, however is a great case in point. Let's compare her with David and Karen, the other two councillors between 2010 and 2014. I don't think I remember attending one community event when either David and/or Karen weren't in attendance. I'm sure Gina also attends events, but perhaps different ones. David and Karen were also regular contributors to HoL.

Now look at the votes each received. It doesn't take much figuring to connect the voting patterns across the city with what happened here. Whilst Harringay votes went with the national mood-swing, there was no discernible counter-effect for Karen and David from their community and online involvement.

>>there was no discernible counter-effect for Karen and David from their community and online involvement.

I don't see how this can be true - we can't know anything, it's just an opinion, not based on anything verifiable.  What if Karen and David 'rescued' votes from people who would otherwise have turned away from the Lib Dems, which is what actually happened on a large scale throughout the ward?

If K&D did 'rescue' votes, their hard work and dedication could be expressed as vote-winners, as could their online-work and the web could turn out to be a big factor in them getting so many votes when many of their Lib Dem colleagues got so few. In fact their losing margin could have been much lower solely because they post on HoL!

We could maybe do exit polls in Harringay next year at the nationals - that could provide some objective 'evidence'.  Even that is hairy - people are hard to assess and many postal vote anyway. Still looking for a more objective basis to decide on - could we do a survey?

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