Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Harringay Traffic Study - Initial Findings Published
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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Ditto Lausanne Rd. I love watching them roar past, indicate right and sometimes turn as well only to have to turn around.
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Permalink Reply by JoeW on
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Tris, your interpretation is wrong.
First, the 49% is "start and/or end", not "start and end". So will include visitors as well as residents.
Second, the report says (para 2.4) the residents in the study area own 6,300 cars and vans.
The 49% of all journeys is 49% of 10,142 (table 3.4, page 45). Is it even remotely likely that 5,071 journeys are made by 6,300 residents in a single weekday hour?
So the bulk of the 49% - and therefore the overwhelming majority of the 100% - must be non-residents.
And the problem is that many of them do not stick to the intended major roads, hence the ratrunning problem.
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Permalink Reply by Nick on
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Out of interest, what would you consider to be the 'intended major roads'?
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Permalink Reply by Dan on
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So many people are talking about 'journeys to and from the study area' as fact. Let's cut into these facts.
So the data is based on the LTDS. Annual survey of c8000 across 32 london boroughs (proportionally 250 for LBH). If we assume the questions are relevant and we assume the sample a representative - we are basing our evidence of traffic movement for literally millions of journeys on what a select group of c250 people say in a survey.
We all know when statements of fact based on surveys have put us into trouble before (referendum polls, elections, etc etc).
Although there are certainly correlations, I would stress caution when as a community we draw conclusions from this data.
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Permalink Reply by JulieB on
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Just what I was thinking Dan. And the car ownership stats are 5 years old.
So I'm thinking the only new information available is the data from the counting wires collected in January and now. Obviously this just tells you how many vehicles cross the lines and their speed and weight - these don't give us any information about how traffic flows in/out/across the borough.
Thank you for posted the interim report Hugh, I don't think I would have seen it otherwise.
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Wow! I didn't see that 'gem'
Surely parking permit data would be more relevant to the borough?
My greatest worry is that I fear a lot of great people (here and beyond) are wasting their precious hard-earned time pouring over data which is in fact...pretty awful.
I see this time and again. As long as the study is presented professionally and allows people to 'have their say', we can draw whatever conclusions we like. As for the questions in survey - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA
I wonder who scoped this work? Consultants? Or the council?
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Isn't that "correlations" approach exactly what is being used in the North London Highway Assignment Model (section 3.45)?
The LTDS survey data isn't great (and throws up some obvious falsehoods - no-one who travels in or out of London to the area does so by train???) but its the best directional source available. What would you suggest? Also note that an average of 5 years surveys are taken - so 1250 people for the borough. Not perfect but better.
Overall, I would agree with others in the thread, this is a summary of existing data that gives pretty obvious answers (The main roads are north south, so most traffic from the north will be coming from Enfield. More car journeys in the area are from those nearby who own more cars (i.e. Haringey West)) but they need to go through the process to see what the impact is of the closures.
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Correlations firstly are not causal. For surveys I posted a great link, which outlines (in a comedic fashion), the pitfalls behind surveys.
Sorry - I disagree with your statement on LTDS data. It's not the best data available. It's lazy, expensive and unscientific (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16536643). It is 2016. We need to look at revealed data sources. What people say is not what they do. This was an issue in the past, but the technology is there today. Many of use apps which apply this tech to get us around the city. We can measure how people are travelling - across modes (including car). We don't have to ask a select group (although granted, we'd need the tech on mobile devices). LBH should be specifying and procuring consultants that can apply revealed multi-modal transport choice data, if behaviour (rather than attitude) is what they are assessing.
I get your point though on agreement. I know we could do so much better though.
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Permalink Reply by Paulie on
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Er, I am a cyclist and want Wightman re-opened! Although I also want a reduction in car use all round. Not sure how though and I am a motorist too.....
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Permalink Reply by James Whyte on
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Hi Hugh, everyone.
Having skimmed through the report, the problem isn't the car owners in the local area, it's that half of the total traffic is from outside flowing through Wightman/Green Lanes.
So perhaps we should stop squabbling amongst ourselves about intra-mini-borough issues. There aren't any more roads, and shutting and opening up routes won't work.
Instead, it's time to toll-road with residents exempt. There is declining car ownership, Uber's great, the buses work, and the tubes are hanging in there.
It's dramatic, but if you charged a fee for Wightman and Green Lanes, others would reconsider clogging up the area, the money would fund local improvements.
There just isn't an alternative that won't infuriate a section of the community. And if half the traffic disappears, then we'll all be happy.
Thoughts?
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