Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Haringey Council Leader resigns
Tags for Forum Posts: Ally Pally, george meehan, haringey chief executive, liz santry
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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You are exaggerating their weekly income. Just thought I'd point out that civil servants pay tax. I'm trying to stay out of the rest of it.
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Permalink Reply by John D on
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We all pay tax. I've never seen a salary level quoted as after tax. In any case, the point perhaps is how much is it costing the Council (us) ?
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You might quote someone's salary (the amount you pay them in a year gross) as not including tax but you don't then just flipping well divide it by 52 and say X is now sitting at home with Y/52 a week. That is just childish.
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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John (M), on reflection, you might feel that you could have chosen a gibe other than "childish". If you remember, this all began after the torture and death of a child, a baby even. We have got far away from that.
Some comments expressed have all the empathy that might be expected in a discussion about a failure of a shipment to meet a delivery schedule.
Failure on the council's At Risk Register has led to deaths. Baby P was just 17 months old and without a voice. -
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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( I know nothing about and make no comment at all on these particular six cases. )
But Clive, are you suggesting in general terms that it's right for an employer to suspend a staff person on 'no pay' when they are accused of possible misconduct and while an investigation is underway?
I realise I may seem hopelessly old-fashioned, but I think there are still one or two things to be said in favour of employment law and the ACAS code.
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Alan I'm no expert on employment law. In general terms, if an employer wants to continue to spend a company's money on paying an employee who is suspended, that is their business and they are accountable to a Board and/or to shareholders.
But where its a council, acting on all our behalves and in particular, using tax payers' money to continue to pay these people in these circumstances, I object. I'm not suggesting that the council is behaving illegally in keeping these people, allegedly guilty of misconduct, on full pay. Merely wrong in these circumstances as the failings that we know about, were so severe. The council is fortunate not to be facing charges of corporate manslaughter.
One sometimes wonders what a council employee has to do to be sacked. The greatest crime and disloyalty that this council seems to recognize is whistle-blowing where the council comes down hard on such folk, like Nevres Kemal.
In making the comment about suspension on full pay for the Haringey six, I am aware that these individuals have continued to enjoy their salaries – not small by ordinary people's standards – for more than 12 months after they might reasonably have been suspended. One wonders how long the suspension on full pay will last? I have to say that Ed Balls at least, as far as he is able, appears to have acted decisively.
If a fraction of the concern for the careers and welfare of council employees and their employment rights had been directed towards safeguarding vulnerable children, Haringey would have the best Children's Service in the country. IMHO, the council has its priorities unbalanced: where there is a conflict, service to the public ought to come first and council employees second. Until this change in culture comes about, I fear Haringey citizens will have substandard service. I sincerely hope that there will be strong leadership in future.
There may be more anger if Ms Shoesmith receives any kind of golden parachute. We have seen too much reward (or bonuses) for failure and that has been rife in the corporate world. The moral dimension seems to have departed the scene and I'm sorry if that too sounds hopelessly old-fashioned.
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You've missed my point, Clive. I'm not referring to six individuals. Nor anyone else employed by Haringey. Nor any other local authority. Or any specific employer or employee - public or private.
I'm simply referring to the general law of employment. And by implication to the Rule of Law and to the principles of Natural Justice.
Shouldn't we all try to avoid our horror and sadness and anger at the death of a very young child, leading us to lose sight of these rules and principles?
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Permalink Reply by Anette on
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BBC Radio said this evening that Ms. Shoesmith "had been sacked". That's not suspended, that's gone. Permanently. Which is good, she was way to arrogant to stay in that job and be good at it. When someone points out to you that something's broken, you fix it, you do not tell them how pretty the surroundings are and make excuses, pretending you have not seen the broken bit. That was her downfall. Ding dong etc.
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Unfortunately, the BBC these days is pretty slipshod about its use of language. Witness "It would be difficult to underestimate the gravity of the financial crisis"
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Permalink Reply by rahman on
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Im sure that the children of Haringey are much safer now that they've got rid of a load of permanent staff. Frees up so much time for real work to be done.
This witch hunt is ridiculous. Maybe we should arrest all of Haringey residents too, for failing as a community to protect the poor child, God rest his soul.
I now understand why they do so much paperwork and there is red tape whenever they try to do anything productive (to cover their asses).
Hundreds of children in Haringey have had their lives improved and even saved by Haringey social services each year. Maybe if they released stats about that, people would start being a little bit more reasonable about this issue.
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Permalink Reply by Birdy_Too on
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Totally agree Rahman.
It leaves a gap for more inexperienced agency staff with zero knowledge of procedure or caseloads to come in and pick up where the full time staff have left.
Draconian salary withdrawal is not the answer, as much as people might wish for it. People have been sacked, hence no more salary, the folk who have been suspended I would imagine would be reviewed, then either terminated or reinstated. Long gone of the days of burning or drowning the witch with no trial
This witch hunt smells like mob handed, black flag waving nonsense spurred on by low grade reactionary journalism.
We all agree that this case is awful beyond anybodies dreams but don't be deluded to think that this is a one off. This happens up and down the countries in other areas too except the headlines are not the top of the agenda and would not sell papers.
I am glad that the report will hopefully improve agencies nationwide, for the benefit of all these children with no voices in all areas of the country.
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