Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Green Lanes is the most ticketed street in England and Wales for illegal parking
In today's Sunday Times (New Section p 15) it says that last year Haringey grossed £564,000 from 12,302 penalty notices issued on our very own 1 1/2 mile stretch of Green Lanes, thus making us the most ticketed street in England and Wales for illegal parking (I'd copy the link but Mr Murdoch charges you to read his output online). I am particularly interested in this fact as I have just received a £50 fine for parking in a bay on Green Lanes under the sign with says "pay at machine till 5 pm on Saturday". The ticket was issued at 5.15 on Saturday. Once I've written to The Times, has anyone else had a ticket like this and can you advise me how to get it withdrawn?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Liz on
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Alan Stanton has flagged up this issue on his Flickr blog and has documented the attempts by the council to simplify the instructions. See his latest update here
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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Thanks, Liz, for mentioning my efforts ─ and even more those by Martin Deutsch ─ to suggest improvements in the wording of the signs. In March 2009 Martin speculated that local councils may be restricted in the wording they can use - so are unable to tackle this problem effectively.
If that's the case, then the proper response - by Haringey and other councils - should be to press the Department for Transport to amend the regulations.
Because it certainly is a problem. People trying to follow the signs are constantly misled. In August Zena and I stopped near a parking meter in Crouch End. So did a couple in another car. Reading the various signs on the meter and on the road, even between the four of us, we were unsure whether or not parking was allowed. Finally, a shopkeeper came out and advised us not to park. "It's a trap", he said.
What everyone wants is certainty, simplicity and clarity. ► Can I park here? Yes or No? ► If 'Yes', when and for how long? ► If there's a charge, how much? In this and for every other parking or traffic offence, a persistently high level of fines shows the system is failing.
Not knowing the source of the Sunday Times figures, I can only guess why Green Lanes shows up as a high fine road - though possibly it's because it is a long road! (Especially if measured from the Hackney to the Enfield border.) Though bear in mind that Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs) are also issued for bus lane and yellow junction box 'offences'.
Incidentally, the last I heard from Chris Turner - after ten months time-wasting by Haringey - he was still waiting for a sensible decision about his yellow box junction PCN - although it was clearly in breach of an unequivocal ruling by the Independent Adjudicator.
Takaokagiejin, I suggest you look at Part Three of Haringey's Parking & Traffic Code of Practice which is online here - page 30. Take Dan's advice about checking the signs and taking photos - include both the notices on the parking meter and on nearby street signs. Though I think he is mistaken about it costing you nothing. My understanding is that if you lose at the Parking Adjudicator stage you will not get the discount for payment within 14 days. But check this yourself in case I am wrong and this has been changed. (Phone 020 8489 1000 and ask for Haringey's parking helpline.)
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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What everyone wants is certainty, simplicity and clarity. ► Can I park here? Yes or No? ► If 'Yes', when and for how long? ► If there's a charge, how much?
Alan, I'm sorry to have to confirm it publicly: this is something about which I completely agree. It is ... logical. I hope that won't cause too much embarassment. I would go so far as to say this simple formula should be a model for all parking signs.
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How about you, Clive, or any other HoL members seeing if they can improve still further on Martin Deutsch's wording?
Please don't be put off by the Parking Service's apparent reluctance to budge. I'm certain that a new version of grace, economy and, above all, piercing clarity will have them sprinting to post it on all the meters.
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Permalink Reply by Maddy on
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I parked somewhere this week where the signs were ambiguous, but the council had put a very clear sticker on the parking meter saying - "Do not park between 5-7 p.m.". It worked for me.
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I'll think about it Alan. What you've suggested is I believe the right rational starting point for all parking signs throughout the country. The next step would be agree a standard, predictable, consistent format, founded on the rational basis you've suggested.
Clear signs would achieve the objects that the council claims and avoid the resentment and sense of entrapment felt by many parkers.
Since drivers with cars perforce, move around, even outside Haringey and even outside London, parking signs IMHO need to have a strong element of standardisation. The position of information needs to be predictable so that a busy person can get the vital information, in the least time possible. i.e. the time they can park in a particular place.
There needs to be an ordering of information (just as you've suggested) of descending importance with minimum letter sizes. At present, we have a dogs breakfast of "information" that by either accident or design, is confusing.
In coming up with a new standard, I think that main conceptual difficulty is dealing with:
(a) the exceptions to the rules
(b) the exceptions to the exceptions
I think this is the core of the challenge in designing unambiguous signs.
None of this is rocket science: just requires some ordered, logical thought.
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Permalink Reply by John D on
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Alan, I've chucked my copy of the Sunday Times, but I'm sure the piece referred to a 1 1/2 mile stretch of Green Lanes, which would correspond to Sainsburys to Ducketts Common.
It also said it was notable for Turkish restaurants but I can't remember if betting shops were mentioned.
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Then, John, I apologise for speculating without knowing both the facts and evidence the article was based on. Though I hope we can agree on the need for clear signs. Which I'd like to see reliably understood by the average driver, in no more than say, thirty seconds.
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Quite agree Alan. How would you respond to this sign ? Stop and go back to read it ?
Obviously the camera is more important than the sign.
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Permalink Reply by Jo on
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Here's a link from a freebie:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23885153-drivers-baf...
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A helpful link, Jo. Though it doesn't say where the figures are taken from. I've sent in a councillor's enquiry on this.
It was odd that the Evening Standard reporter queried the different hours on either side of the road. Perhaps they didn't spot the bus lane?
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John,
Well, technically you could stop to read the sign as it's not a 'no stopping' sign but a 'no waiting' sign!! Just don't hang around too long.
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