Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!

Fly tippers taking the mick....

Hi all,

Found those dumped clothes yday on Warham Road. Fly tippers really taking the mick here given that the warning sign is right above the pile. I think this picture exemplifies the council's failed policies and measures in dealing with this ongoing problem. I feel like things have gotten worse again in the last few weeks with more dumped rubbish on our streets. We made a push few months ago trying to address the problem. Maybe worth re-engaging with the council.

I hate having to walk along our streets and explaining to our children why there is so much rubbish on our streets.

Time for the council to act and step up their game.

Dominik

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on August 18, 2019 at 11:44

"... normalisation of rubbish piles on pavements that encourages more bad behaviour."

I'd agree almost entirely, Don, but perhaps with a slight variation from "bad behaviour" to 'unwanted' or 'unintended' behaviour.
I imagine, or at least hope, that whoever came up with the idea of officially sanctioned piles of rubbish on pavements is now deeply embarrassed. And thinking - maybe even saying - "That's not we thought would happen".

Their "solution" to this aspect of the waste problem has turned out to produce a visible "system" which is wasteful, unhealthy, costly, unpleasant, sometimes smelly, and - for many people - shaming and disgusting. In fact "disgusting" may be the most frequent word used when residents express their opinions online.

But there are also several alternative ways of looking at this phenomenon. One is to understand it as a symptom or even a useful early warning. Our longstanding practices for removing waste oh-so nicely, neatly, are now visibly fraying and in some cases breaking down.

We sometimes remember and honour Sir Joseph Bazalgette for indefatigable work, engineering skills, and vision in the building of London's sewers which took sewage off the streets and into the Thames. Flushing waste into the sea, burning it, burying it underground, or shipping it to poorer countries has "worked" for a while.
But maybe it's not such a bad thing that we now have to meet it again on the road? To learn that there is no "outside".

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Permalink Reply by Robert Pike on August 16, 2019 at 8:24

Take our Rubbish Survey: https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/DXG2VPK

The photo is the kind of thing Tidy Up Tottenham were founded to fight. We're an independent community group and you can find out more here: https://www.tidyuptottenham.org/

Our survey is gathering data that we can use to challenge the councils own strategies, which I assume many believe are ineffective at tackling local "tossers".

And if your kids are affected we are starting our school outreach programme in September. Because kids seem to understand way more than some adults.

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Permalink Reply by Dan on August 16, 2019 at 12:12

It's nice that the council have recognised the problem.

but...

What on earth will an education campaign measurably set out to achieve? I'm really tired of this lack of evidence-based policy making. A poster is not going to stop littering.

Bigger fines, sure - why not?

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Permalink Reply by JoLu on August 16, 2019 at 12:50

One suggestion: Increase the council tax for repeat offenders, no avoiding paying fines that way.

My feeling, and from experience approaching fly tippers caught in the act, is that:

a) They just don't care, they see other people doing it and so follow those actions knowing that it'll get picked up at some point, or

b) There is a clear language barrier in some cases, which might effect some residents' or businesses' understanding of refuse collections (what to recycle, etc), council policy and/or generally different attitudes to how people should and want to live in the borough. Putting up signs on lamp posts, as exampled in the original post, are largely ineffective based on the evidence in that photo!

My last encounter with fly tippers was resulted in the threat of physical violence towards me so I'm more cautious and reserved on the idea of residents taking action into their own hands, however, there has to be a way residents who care can work with the council on a large, hard-hitting scale, along with groups such as the Tidy Up Tottenham campaign, in order to target offenders quickly and effectively?

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Permalink Reply by Bob Ruggles on August 16, 2019 at 13:15

I added a link what Haringey are currently doing. as posted daily on their Facebook Page

Joke was last week a combine operation of 20 plus and Only 6 people issued Notices

Environment Protection Act was brought in because Local Authorities like Haringey and others was Not Enforcing BY- Laws

But its Down to Haringey Rate Payers to put pressure on Our Elected Councillors

Especially after checking how much they get in Standing Fees and Expenses

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Permalink Reply by Dan on August 16, 2019 at 13:49

I don't think leveraging fines against taxes is possible.

My thoughts is the council should push this out as a conditionally-funded tech competition for startups to solve the problem. Using the education budget, which IMO is a waste of money. There is no evidence to support this as a good spend. SBRI is a great start.

IMHO there are three issues:

1) Prevention. Increasing fines for sure, and understanding and communicating perpetrators.Why is this happening? What are the economics from a fly tipper's perspective? A lot of collaborative thinking needed here, as every council in the UK is dealing with this, in their own way, I imagine.

I completely agree with JoLu on this.

2) Detection. Means of identifying perpetrators using CCTV, machine learning/recognition/regressions/predictive analytics

3) Clear up. Increasing incentives for reporting and clear up (without creating 'gaming' opps) - which remove the problem quickly in an efficient way. There are some really smart ways this can be incentivised, without going down traditional 'rely on someone caring the right way' or 'vouchers'.

But I expect LBH to spend a ton of cash on a rubbish (pardon the pun) campaign, which is solely about showing they are doing something. Go PR!

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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on August 16, 2019 at 14:04

In addition to the ideas others have mentioned, a few things come to mind on how this can start to be addressed

Haringey already have a big street presence - the civil enforcement officers who deal with parking. Would it be worth renegotiating the contract when it comes up to give them a reporting role. Arm them with mobiles or other devices that give them direct access to the systems they need for reporting. They already carry cameras so these can be used to record actual incidents as the occur.
Bring back community clear out days. These were hugely successful when they were held. A couple of time a year a street is encouraged to put out bulk waste the night before and a truck comes up the road the next morning to clear it all away.
Volunteer Street wardens. Locals who can make the commitment to keep an eye on dumping in their immediate area.
Make better use of data. Haringey have terra bites of data from idiots like me who log reports. A commercial company would pay a fortune for intelligence like this and they are getting it for free. Really squeeze every drop of out in. Identify the hot spots and repeat addresses and do something about them.

I’m sure people have loads of other ideas.

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Permalink Reply by JoLu on August 16, 2019 at 14:44

Some great ideas (and Dan). How do we get these to someone who can do something? Presumably contact Seema Chandwani again (the post suggests she is open to further dialogue)..?