Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Don't lose your voice! Vote with your feet
Plato said that if you don't engage in politics you end up being ruled by your inferiors — a sentiment that I'm sure many people share today. Whether it's the Labour Council or the LibDem government that you can't stand, why not stand up and do something about it by joining this campaign to get people to register to vote.
Perhaps if more people exercised their democratic rights politicians would be less complacent and maybe listen to what people really want.
I'm not saying this is the entire solution, but it's a start, so why not sign up and vote with your feet and help this grass-roots door-knocking campaign
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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I think you get more bang for your buck by joining the Labour Party around here but good on you.
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Permalink Reply by JP on
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The whole point about this initiative is that it has no connection with any political party, it is simply about getting people to engage with the system. Personally I have voted for pretty much all the main parties, and some minor ones, over the years. But I always vote because I think you can't complain about the politicians you get if you haven't got off your backside to do something express your view.
I think politicians of all persuasions would be more accountable if they knew they needed to win over more than a small minority of their electorate (because apathy means the outcome is often decided by a handful of votes)
And don't forget the power of the protest vote. What would happen, for instance, if a huge number of electors voted, but also wrote 'Don't privatise the NHS' or 'I want a referendum on EU' on their ballot? If enough people 'spoilt' their ballots on a single issue the Electoral Commission may take the view that they had to be counted. It happened in Australia with a 'No dams' vote which saved what is now a World Heritage site.
If nothing, the party supporters who scrutinise would get a clear message.
Don't get me wrong, I am not encouraging spoiling of ballots, I'm just pointing out that by registering to vote you can make sure you have a voice.
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I've watched how it happens in eastern Haringey since 2010. Plato wasn't just talking about voting, he was talking about being involved in your democracy and in Tottenham you will never get anything other than Labour councillors so join the party and help choose them. I'd love to be proved wrong but the swings required are unprecedented.
Are you even aware of this?
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Yes, I have lived in Haringey long enough to know the politics of the area — but I do not believe signing up to a party system is the answer.
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Why not? The system used to work that way.
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I think the party system is in part to blame for the current apathy and poor turn out.
Your choice of words ('used to') suggests you're not convinced it still works.
Surely anything which encourages people to vote and/or think about the political choices on offer has to be a good thing.
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I come from New Zealand where political parties are not involved in local politics. What you get is businessmen running the council. There are bad sides to both systems but at least with the one in England it is possible to get "residents" representing the electorate.
Having had to look hard at the Labour Party rule book I can see that it relies on mass membership, i.e. in safe seats most Labour voters are also members. When a man can walk into a meeting with five others and get himself selected because of collusion with eight regular members surely the numbers involved tell you what you need to do and where it's easiest. It's too late now but don't let that stop you for 2018.
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Anything which makes politicians more answerable to people has to be a good thing, whether on a local, federal or European level — so good luck with your attempts at internal reform.
I, personally, choose not to engage in the party system, but nor do I choose to disengage with the need for political accountability, hence my support for this campaign to get more people to register.
I respect your view, I hope you respect mine.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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JP you can't vote and write a message across your ballot paper. It becomes a spoiled paper and your vote is not counted.
The whole point about this initiative is that it pretends there are no parties and helps validate and perpetuate a diseased system. Millions of people express their political views a lot more often than every five years. Huge numbers expressed their disgust at the expenses scandal. Millions marched against the war in Iraq. Opinion polls show the strength of people's views on issues such as the NHS. On the whole, our political class is impervious to these views.
I sincerely urge you to reflect on what you are doing. Perhaps you are one of the people who has signed-up to a current campaign to encourage voter registration and voting. Because the powers-that-be are worried that too many people have decided that - as Leo Tolstoy once said - that he didn't like catshit or dogshit and wasn't going to be persuaded to choose between them.
Reflect as well on the example of the greengrocer given by Václav Havel in his essay The power of the powerless where a society exerts pressure on individuals to behave in politically approved ways. In our society people have the right not to express officially approved views about the State. Also to express opposing views. And to say: "a plague on all your houses" Montagues, Capulets, Greens and LibDems.
I am very lucky and in my ward I know at least two candidates worth voting for. (I'm not standing.) But if there was not one name on the ballot paper I could in all conscience put my cross against then, Yes I would still walk down to the polling station. I'd make sure to take a broad bright marker pen. And write "DOGSHIT & CATSHIT" in large fat letters. It would make me feel better. But the Electoral Commission wouldn't give a toss even if they heard about my protest.
In those cases and places when people choose to think of politicians as different sizes, colours and odours of various animal faeces, and not bother voting at all, please respect their well informed, nuanced and almost certainly justified views.
(Tottenham Hale ward councillor)
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If you read my post you will see that I said that if enough people 'spoilt' their ballor for an issue the electoral commission may be forced to count them.
As I said, this HAS happened in Australia, which has a v similar electoral system. It comes down to whether or not the voter's intention is clear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmanian_power_referendum,_1981
I was not encouraging people to spoil their votes, simply pointing out that if they agree with your view that the system is 'diseased' there is more than one way to have your say.
If someone has thought through the issues and decided against voting, fine, I respect that position. All I, and many others who have signed up to this campaign, are trying to do is get people to at least think about the issues and also make is easier for those who have just not bothered to register.
The groups behind is not being organised by the 'powers that be'. Far from it. Groups like 38 degrees have shown that you don't have to join a party machine to make a difference. And I, for one, think that is an extremely healthy and democratic advance on the simplistic us or them political choices we have had in the past.
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38 degrees, yes. Up to a point. Extra-parliamentary activity, sure. Single issue lobbying? Great.
I'm also enthusiastic about voting for particular candidates and their approach, political convictions and track record. Though a personality cult has serious dangers - as I'm sure you appreciate.
But if you don't want "the simplistic us or them political choices we have had in the past" why on earth are you encouraging people to stroll to the poll where the practical choice will indeed be us or them?
When people get to the polling booth they will - in all practical respects which make any difference to the outcome - be able to vote for the existing party labels. But before they even get there or find out the date of the elections what do you think has happened?
John McMullan is spot on. A small selectorate chooses candidates. In "safe" wards this means that a handful of party members - in effect - get to elect councillors for the next four years. It's a system which Kim Jong-un must envy. All the trappings of democracy.
We're told that Haringey LibDems have one big members' meeting. But there aren't that many of them. You won't get to go and see what happens unless you're a party member.
We saw how Haringey Tories did it in Harringay ward. Their Chairman/agent/Chief Spokesperson Justin rings up his old dear friend Lydia Rivlin.
Labour does it in little meetings of the party faithful in each ward. There are ballots but in some wards the three existing councillors are simply anointed once more. Where there is a ballot, there'll be at most a couple of dozen people present; maybe fewer.
If you've read the thread John suggested you'll know that in St Ann's ward five of the "members" taking part don't live there. The process was rigged and then covered-up. As it's a "safe" Labour seat are you seriously encouraging people to sign up and to go along to vote on 22 May, thereby legitimating a process that stinks to high heaven?
And beyond the elections? Hasn't it occurred to you that locally these "parties" are so often empty shells? Please look and listen carefully to what goes on. Don't mistake the PR for the reality. Forget the loudspeakers and the smart clothes and expensive haircuts. Pull back the curtain and pay close attention to the nonentities operating the controls.
Observe the walking dead; zombie councillors. Listen to the speak-your-leaflet Stepford candidates. Distinguish living political debate from glove puppets.
If you hadn't yet realised where you are, welcome to Old Sarum.
(Tottenham Hale ward councillor)
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