Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Consultation Documents Issued for Harringay's High Street
Further to my post last week, Haringey Council have today started a consultation for the Trader and GLA led project to spruce up Harringay's stretch of Green Lanes.
A copy of a six-page fold out document detailing the options for consultation is being posted through the letter boxes of Harringay residents today.
If you're a home and you've seen it, what do you think? Do you like the lights on top of the Salisbury?
Link: Online Consultation
Tags for Forum Posts: harringay regeneration 2012-13, high street parking, high streets, outer london fund
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Permalink Reply by linka on
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Wood Green is a total nightmare to cycle in: a narrow, uncertain and dodgem-like path between parked cars, along loose and imperfectly finished pavement boundaries, and stationery and slow-moving jammed buses.
I use the GL bus lane to cycle in on the way to work. The cycle home is notably more dangerous and I have to 'take the lane' to be safe at all (although it's slower not to try weaving, which the road generally isn't wide enough for already).
I like the general plan, but the removal of bus lane and proposal of pavement parking fills me with dread. Prioritise pedestrians, cyclists and public transport please.
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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Your position: We are replacing the bus lane with car parking.
Your statistic: Nobody will notice really because the bus lane is only in use 12.5% of the day.
My Position: The bourgeois shopkeepers of Harringay want to replace our city bound bus lane with car parking because they think this is what is required to have more shoppers use their shops. They have nothing other than anecdotal evidence for this position.
My Statistic: The distance between Turnpike Land and Manor House is 1.5 miles or a 30 minute walk. The most necessary bus lane in the mornings is the one on Green Lanes between these two stations because the proletariat residents of Bedsit Land (A.K.A. Harringay) use it to get to work.
If you want parking, take it from the vehicle commuting residents in the Ladder who do not need their car parks when your shops are open (nor do they contribute to the council's traffic budget by purchasing a residents's parking permit).
As for 12.5%. You can't see it but this is rather devious of you. The true usage for the bus lane should be calculated by looking at how many people use it in those three hours via buses and bicycles. Not the overly simplistic way that you have done it.
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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There are two issues for me here, John:
1. The impact on bus journey time. I don't have those figures, but TfL have calculated the likely impact. A few of us challenged their initial assessment, but if I remember right, even after a recalculation, the increase in the rush hour bus journey time between Turnpike Lanes and Manor House would still be measured in seconds rather than minutes. Rob, do you have the figures?
2. The second issue is cyclist safety. I wonder if an option hear would be to lose the bus lane but to add a cyclist lane is both directions?
At the last GLSG to which I was invited, I asked if it would be practical to trial any roadway changes prior to implementing them. The answer was yes. So all that remains is the cost of doing that and the will to do it.
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Permalink Reply by Alison P on
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Problem is that I just can't believe that figure Hugh (that the impact of removing the bus lane will be adding mere seconds on the average bus trip during the rush hour). How can that be true when every bus trip I do in that 3 hour slot ALWAYS involves the bus moving faster than the car traffic? I'm not stupid - I know your own experiences aren't necessarily typical, but it does seem a bit incredible to claim the bus lane currently makes no difference!
Personally I'd love to see a cycle lane, as that would offer cyclists a massive improvement over the current scheme. But it still seems odd that we are talking about getting rid of giving public transport a priority in a traffic clogged hotspot.
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Well Hugh why do this kind of impact assessment when within living memory we had no bus lane and journey times were outrageously long early in the morning? In fact, the bus lane only operates Monday to Friday so let's compare how long it takes to get from Turnpike Lane to Manor House on a Saturday in peak traffic to how long it takes when the bus lane is in operation during the week. Everybody knows that the figures from TfL are rubbish (look at their figures for the Olympics) and only people with a vested interest are expressing anything other than extreme scepticism about them.
This is being presented as a fait acompli when it was know about more than a year ago. Concerns were expressed at the time and Nilgun said not to worry it would all go to consultation. Against my better judgement I didn't shout about it.
There are two issues here, cyclist safety and journey times to work for people on those busses (we agree!). Don't think that there is a solution other than "The bus lane stays" that will address both of them.
Will the council be consulting people at the bus stops? Will they heck.
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Just reporting what I know, J. You have valid concerns which need a considered response from those who will be making or influencing the decision.
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Permalink Reply by Matt Hewitt on
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Strongly agree with John and Alison P.
If the bus lanes were stripped out and replaced with wide pavements and continental cafe culture etc, I could at least console myself that the sacrifice of longer peak-time bus journeys and a missed opportunity for cycling had some upside.
But to give over a great deal of this newly-reclaimed space to nicely-paved parking bays is really sad indeed.
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A narrow cyclist lane sandwiched between traffic and pavement parking is worse than useless and potentially lethal.
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Permalink Reply by Pete Thorniley on
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John, I can't dispute that certain times are more significant than others. It was perhaps unwise to pick up on the 15% figure, though I thought is was relatively fair given that if we'd included weekends we'd be down at less than 10% (if i understand the restrictions correctly). However, we all know that traffic on green lanes isn't a problem solely during those hours, and I felt that there was a chance that a fear of increased traffic at other times was influencing the debate, whereas the bus lane proposal would have no effect in that regard.
As someone who does cycle, green lanes is a nightmare, bus lane or not. I would have hoped that removing the bus lane would at least allow sufficient space for dedicated cycle lanes. That doesn't seem to be part of the plan, which is a problem for me.
As mentioned above, I think there are advantages to removing the bus lane, as well as obvious disadvantages during the morning rush hour. I'm not yet convinced that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. A cycle lane might push me in one direction, but it's not catered for.
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what about a standalone cycle lane protected from traffic. given the problems i had in the past negotiating gl by bike, parked car doors being flung open and the pollutions levels it was a nightmare, i tried to avoid the lanes, maybe thats worth looking at, decluttering the street of as much as possible, of cars, buses bikes, horse and carts etc, maybe push some it towards crouch end etc give gl some breathing space
you'd expect tfl to be involved here and contributing to the plan. i wonder if they were included in the consultation process as its key to getting it right?
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I've invited the London Cycling Scheme to comment via twitter.
They have given input on other road renovation schemes elsewhere in London recently, so I would expect their experience to give valuable insights.
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I am surprised that they seem to be prepared to remove the buslanes. I spent years discussing the road layout under the Hornsey Railway Bridge with focus on the narrow pavements and dangers to pedestrians and cyclists. We were told that the 50 meter buslane under the bridge between the busstops either side of the bridge could not be removed as this would mess up the bus time tables. But then a lot of Haringey council were very rude to us and really just wanted us to go away.... The new layout of Green Lanes dont seem to make it much safer to be a pedestrian or a cyclist.
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