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Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!

Civility & inclusiveness on HoL

I had a message passed on to me this morning from someone who's relatively new to the site. She felt uncertain about the robustness of some of the debate and felt a bit put off from contributing by that.

I know what she means. Sometimes things do get a bit tinged with the feel of a just-before-closing-time discussion. So whilst a certain amount of rough and tumble is part and parcel of democratic debate (as we know from watching Westminster), let's bear in mind that when the line is crossed it makes some people feel excluded.

Any thoughts?

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Permalink Reply by matt on October 1, 2009 at 13:19
Well said Ruth.
Permalink Reply by Azul-Valerie Thome on October 3, 2009 at 16:59
It is interesting to read some of the comments above...it shows me again how we are still so weak at collaboration and inclusiveness ( not only a female attribute by the way!!!). My view is that there is room for all views and all methods of communication.

I would love to see dialogues where the 'this OR that' is replaced with the 'this AND that'.

All the best
Permalink Reply by Alison P on October 1, 2009 at 9:58
I think you are being too blase about this - I think it is an issue, as it is on many networking sites. Just because there isn't an easy solution doesn't mean there isn't an issue or that it isn't worth talking about.

Discussions can quickly become 'robust' exchanges of views between a limited number of people, all of whom feel very comfortable being forthright with their views and opinions. Not everyone is like that, especially people who are new to the site. Some comments can read as putdowns - you might know that they are not, and so might the person they were aimed at - but not everyone reading the posts will know how they are being intended, or received.
Permalink Reply by StephenBln on October 1, 2009 at 10:04
Alison.. I think you have a point there..
Permalink Reply by Liz on October 1, 2009 at 10:15
Good heavens! Look at who has answered this post. Anyone who might have clicked through to say they feel put off will immediately feel excluded by the tone of the replies. The assumptions in your responses about people are astonishing!

John M, its not a small number, its a big number.
John D, people may not want to add anodyne comments about the weather but fear being jumped on. Why assume that people who want to contribute only want to talk about the banal?
Birdy, again an assumption that someone is prissy, with the cucumber sandwiches remark, if they feel put off.

Yes, it helps if people meet one another but lets face it if this was offline, would most people walk into the middle of a debate between a bunch of people who appear to know one another well, debating 'robustly' and offer their view? No, they wouldn't and this is no different.

For many people, HOL might be their first time on a forum style website (it was mine), most of you who have answered are experienced with this kind of site from your other interests, therefore you don't have the same problems with contributing. Not everyone want to 'attack' some would just like to offer a view without getting ripped to shreds.

Perhaps you should consider how you tackle the contribution of someone new to a thread. Maybe a thanks for taking part, resist the temptation to blow them out of the water, make them feel at ease, just like you would at a face to face meeting

We got a good thing going on here but we must not spoil it by cliqueyness. If someone feels the way Hugh has expressed, we have a duty to listen and consider. Otherwise, we are no different from any other cosy group like say for example the GLSG, who think we know what's best for a community and don't hear people saying anything different.
Permalink Reply by Danzigger on October 1, 2009 at 10:36
I think that new or unfamiliar posters are treated very considerately; all the "robust" conversation seems to go on between people who know each other, at least from the site if not in the real world.
Being a bit shy and retiring myself, I wouldn't join in with a frank exchange of views between Birdy and Stephen over the pros and cons of bendy buses, but that wouldn't put me off asking about a good supplier of organic quinoa in another thread.
I don't think it's reasonable or even desirable to expect people who know each other to temper their comments for the benefit of people who may or may not be tempted to join in the debate. It's a shame if people feel that we are cliquey - but that's their mistake, and I think if they gave the forum a chance, they'd soon find conversations that they were happy to join in with.
Permalink Reply by John D on October 1, 2009 at 10:54
"Anodyne comments" was in contrast to "Robust debate " and mere hyperbole.

I wonder if a newcomer would find Liz's post a bit robust though ? :-)
Permalink Reply by John McMullan on October 1, 2009 at 11:11
There is nothing that we can do about it other than ask people like me not to be so robust. This is essentially what Hugh was doing.

I tried to get some electronic signatures on a bus petition that was reasonably well publicised on here and got 52. What does that say about our membership?
Permalink Reply by Anette on October 3, 2009 at 23:31
That not so many of us want the stupid bus..?
Permalink Reply by Birdy_Too on October 1, 2009 at 11:26
There are probably more people put off by the etiquette you are wanting to create than the frank exchange of views. I know many who don't come on HOL due to this and it's not due to the robust nature of this forum its for fear of being told off! Let people get on with their discussions with interruptions please.

I am a member of around ten forums (music, sport, political), this is by far the most civil. I don't think this is a gender issue as there are many women (who shall remain nameless!) who are equally robust and are passionate about their contributions. I have been on the end of a few of these opinions, which is great as I probably ask for it most times.

Cucumber sandwiches; joke Liz stop disecting posts looking for meanings, when there's nout there. I'm not that deep, my point is lets keep it informal rather than formal : )
Permalink Reply by Hugh on October 1, 2009 at 10:40
Notice the gender split here?
Permalink Reply by Liz on October 1, 2009 at 10:55
yes, significant isn't it? I know this lot would roar like wounded lions if I created some women only discussions but it would be interesting to compare them. As it stands many of these threads feel like men only.

I'm not saying temper your comments to each other, well yes I am, some of the exchanges verge on simple points scoring and if people see that they might think I don't want to get involved in that kind of tit for tat, but also don't jump down the throat of a new contributor, don't pedantically correct their spelling for example. People become bored with the same old same old and need to feel their contribution is valued

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