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Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!

News on Some Truly Radical and Imagintive thinking on the Sainsbury's Traffic Disaster

They caused it between them, Sainsbury's, the Arena and the bumbling Council. Sainsburys and the Arena are profiting. And this is the best they can come up with between the three of them?

This from Haringey Council's website:

Improving shopping congestion in Green Lanes

Wednesday 2 April 2008

A range of options to improve traffic flow around a shopping complex in Green Lanes were discussed at a meeting convened by Haringey Council on Monday 31 March.

The meeting was called to consider ways of addressing increased congestion around the junction of Williamson Road and Green Lanes, N4, by the Arena shopping development and Sainsbury's.

Representatives from the council and Wildmoor Properties - the owners of the Arena complex - and Sainsbury's agreed to look at a number of options to improve the traffic flow.

These include potentially rerouting traffic around the complex itself. Other possible options include working with partners to introduce a lay-by at the southbound bus stop by the junction with Williamson Road. This would ease traffic flows as vehicles would no longer have to wait behind buses at the bus stop.

Representatives at the meeting also agreed to enter into discussions with London and Quadrant Housing Trust, which owns land at the rear of the site, over the possibility of introducing emergency access only to the site from Finsbury Park Avenue.

Cabinet Member for Environment and Conservation, Cllr Brian Haley, said:

"This was a useful meeting and I was very pleased with the positive response we received from Sainsbury's and Wildmoor Properties.

"There are no simple solutions to these problems. We need to work very closely together and with a range of other partners if we're going to tackle this congestion effectively.

"I look forward to meeting with both organisations again in May and I hope some positive progress will have been made on all sides."

No Brian. There are no simple solutions - except perhaps getting a proper job done during the planning application process . And we too hope for some postive progress, but we've learned not to hold our breaths.

Tags for Forum Posts: Sainsbury's Story, sainsbury's, tfl, traffic

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Hi GN8, you sound very organised so maybe the 'hour snailing out of the car park' every two weeks could be avoided completely by ordering online and getting it delivered?
Yes you are right we have considered it... but then you can not choose what you get...

As I said we avoid the traffic madness by either shopping else where or going in very early on Saturday.
I also think there isn't particularly a huge rise in the number of people using Sainsbury's just because they re-fitted the building's interior and added a few clothes and electrical items.

The traffic chaos is more than likely down to redesigning the carpark layout so that traffic 'in' & 'out' now use the same opening into the car park. They are now looking to bring back the old design which would see 'in' & 'out' separated. People exiting would do so where the W5 bus stop is now or near to it.
I'm afraid I disagree. The bottleneck is exiting the shopping complex from Williamson Road on to GL. No matter what snarl up they made of the car park, the issue is the number of cars leaving the Sainsbury's/Arena complex.

Sainsbury's haven't taken that many spaces away yet the car park seems pretty full now whenever I seem to go. Doesn't make sense to me but a few bits of tat DO seem to have significantly increased Sainsbury's throughput.
That big old carpark used to be at most 50% full. They ONLY redesigned things to get more people there.
Or same old customers buying more things other than food
Thanks for sharing your different experience Hugh, as I suspected I may not have the full picture of what is going on.

It really demonstrate the need for true down to earth data. Like counting cars and surveing people who are stuck in traffic anyway should be an easy thing... asking things like:

*Where people come from
*Have they shopped here before Sainsbury's started tat selling
*How many times a week they shop there and
*Is it different on other days of the week

Another useful bit of information would be:
Did the traffic light timing has changed at the time of the reopening of Sainsbury's? I should imagine Haringey highway department should be able to provide an answer to that.

I wonder if Haringey would bother finding out any of the above, or just do what they do best - not a lot and then come up with another plan which would probably make things worse

I would love to proven wrong on this one though...
I'm pretty sure the timing of the lights hasn't changed. Haringey's main plan at the moment is to rephase the traffic lights, which needs new equipment to be fitted, planned for February, No March....um April......sorry May....

I imagine if the lights had been fiddled with, they'd have put them back by now. The new lights may help, but I'm sceptical as to whether the'll solve it. Granting planning permission for expanding Sainsbury's generated more traffic. It was, in my view, in failing to consider, or give sufficient weight to, the impact of granting planning permission that the mistake was made. There now appears to be insufficient political will to correct the planning errors that were made. To put much blame on the reatilers is just passing the buck on from where it belongs.
Regarding the timing of the traffic light:
According to my partner who is the driver between us, the timing of the light has definitely changed!

I will try to repeat what he explained as best I can:

Prior to the changes the filter light allowing cars to turn left out on to GL would allow some 10 cars to pass before turning red and it
would always turn green whenever the filter light from GL into the car park turned green, allowing cars coming from the direction of manor house to turn right into the shoping area.

Now he says the filter light out to GL is much shorter, allowing only 3 to 5 cars to pass through and it is not always turning green when the the filter light inwards turns green.

He thinks it is a result of the pedestrian crossing at that light which takes president over traffic.

I hope this is clear
OMG, I feel so stupid. Of course this has been a problem. All I've done is admire the fact that the council finally did something about that crossing (Endymion/Green Lanes) before someone was killed. It bet there's less opportunity to turn right into Endymion from Green Lanes too. No wonder there's not going to be an easy solution, I bet Sainsburys want that crossing gone and the council don't.
Yes a traffic survey would help but the increases in traffic would only show up if there is data to compare from before the store's refurb.

Whatever, the taskforce now headed up by councillors Adamou & Haley is now trying tackle the matter ...... now that the horse has bolted.
I'd be interested in knowing how concerned the stores in the Arena are. I never drive there any more at weekends, or even during the day in the week. I've advised lots of people not to do the same (not that I want to exaggerate my persuasiveness or the number of friends I have!). Homebase in particular often seems deserted, and I'd imagine that they would be the main shop (after Sains - or perhaps more than Sains??) to suffer if car drivers simply stopped visiting. When ever I go its for garden stuff and there is a limit to how many bags of compost you can fit on a bike or sling in a bag ...

For what it is worth, as far as I can see the issue is one of volume of traffic (though I'm sure the routing of traffic within the complex hasn't helped) - certainly my recollection is that the problems started once the new shops started opening at the complex. So I'm not convinced that fiddling with the lights etc etc will do that much good. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong though ..



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