Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Does Haringey Recycling programe - have a true Carbon footprint
Haringey has spent a fortune in Manpower / Plant / vehicles
to carry out it's Recycling Plan
Does it really produce a good Footprint
Taking into account the amount of Costs and efforts
When the Borough's waste is thrown into a Incinerator
Yes I believe in Recycling
But the Borough seems to keep spending more
than any possible savings
to carry out it's Recycling Plan
Does it really produce a good Footprint
Taking into account the amount of Costs and efforts
When the Borough's waste is thrown into a Incinerator
Yes I believe in Recycling
But the Borough seems to keep spending more
than any possible savings
Tags for Forum Posts: recycling
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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Should recycling be judged so harshly? I've just put all our recycling out and there's a LOT.... and only one bag of rubbish for the week. So one bag of rubbish to a landfill and the rest not... who cares if its carbon footprint is too big... once more people use it because the service is so good... it will be fine.
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Permalink Reply by Omotn on
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Apparently recycling should be judged more harshly - its just a con - the council actually treats the materai as just more rubbish. We're being duped, deluded and diddled If Lynne is to be believed
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Apparently, the stuff we leave at the roadside isn't even recycled properly, if Lynne F';s latest "column" is to be believed. I have asked bot Lynne and Brian Haley (environment / recycling go together I guess) to put my mind at ease in this respect.
Lynne's Column
Here's my latest column. Hope you find it interesting!
Best wishes,
Lynne
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If empty bottles had dreams
Here’s a question - why do we still need bottle banks when we have doorstep recycling? A relevant question as Haringey Council is on the brink of scrapping them.
Doorstop recycling is great idea in principle. It responds to the reality of any time poor Londoner; there aren’t enough hours in the day to do everything let along make it to the bottle bank. Green boxes are an easy and convenient method that lots of Councils have chosen to increase the amount of waste recycled.
The problem is that it is the best worst option. That might sound a bit strange, but here’s what I mean. Take an ordinary glass bottle, let’s say a wine bottle. After you have finished the last drop of that cheeky red I am sure you diligently put it in your green box.
Here is where the problem starts. Because not only do you put in wine bottle from Friday night, but you also put in the weekend’s newspapers, the pizza flyers that come through your letter box and your plastic milk containers after you finished the last drop milk for your crunchy-nut cornflakes that morning.
When this mix leaves your doorstep and gets crushed in the lorries that transports it to the recovery centre, the damage is done. The dreams of that poor bottle are crushed and that empty bottle of cheeky red has absolutely no chance of ever been turned back into even a milk bottle let alone the finest Chateauneuf-du-Pape.
The bottle does get kind of recycled, but the best that poor bottle can ever hope to be is road fill because of the contamination. Hardly the most glamorous end to your favourite Pinot Noir but more seriously, what is lost when it is recycling in this way is the enormous energy saving potential of that glass. It takes about seven times the amount of energy to make new glass than is does to make glass from recycled glass. An extremely important fact as we try to reduce our carbon footprint.
Until a more perfect and cost effective alternative presents itself, kerbside recycling in its current form is here to stay for a while. But in the meantime, why not keep our bottle banks? When practical, I am sure many people are happy to take their glass to the supermarket bottle bank instead of consigning it to be become part of the M1 extension.
Taking the greenest option away is simply ludicrous and retrograde step in our fight to make our communities more environmentally friendly. I for one will be fighting to keep our bottle banks not only to help drive down our borough’s carbon emission, but so green bottles can still dream of rediscovering their cheeky former selves.
Me to Lynne
Lynne
So what now is the truth? I remember one of these circulars from you not long ago (maybe 2 years?) telling us about the explanation you'd had from the council that actually they have a technique to separate all the items from the recycling when it gets back to base.You even had a fancy name for the machine that did it. There was a time the collectors would do the sorting on the back of the lorry as stuff was collected.
Which urban myth should we believe? Because I'm damned if I want to go on jumping through these absurd recycling hoops for no reason at all, not even one as poor as the CO2 causes global warming nonsense.
Regards
Adrian
Me to Haley
Dear Councillor Haley
I hope I have addressed this correctly. I hope that recycling is part of your remit under the heading Environment. If not please could you forward this for me to the relevant cabinet member.
Lynne Featherstone's latest circular suggests that the items I set aside each week so carefully in my green recycling box are not actually recycled as such, but dealt with in some other way, Please reassure me that she is worng and that glass is recycled as glass, paper as paper, etc.
I append a copy of her circular for your consideration.
Many Thanks
Adrian Essex
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Lynne's reply to me - mostly agreeing with Liz, so with Lynne and Liz as alliterative ladies largely in league re lorries of litter, the facts seem to be established - re-cycling is achieved but not quite as well as it might be. Further thoughts perhaps when Haley responds.
Dear Adrian,
They do get sorted out in the recovery facility. The problem is the level of contamination. For glass to be recycled into glass it has to be separated out into colours and virtually free other non glass material (as is delivered by a bottle bank!). If you ever watch the green box collection lorries, they are just posh rubbish collection trucks. And the material gets compacted as the lorry goes along breaking the glass and making only a basic sort possible.
In its wisdom, Haringey Council abandoned hand sorting for this system in a bid for volume and at the cost of quality. To my mind you need both. Hope that helps explain.
Best,
Lynne.
PS - Not sure about your global warming comment...!
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Permalink Reply by Liz on
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In a sense, Lynne is correct in that the bottles put out for recycling are used for roads but this is because of the different coloured glass being mixed up. In order for bottles to be recycled into new glass they have to be separated by colour and that is why the option of bottle banks should be kept. I'm not clear what the reasoning is behind Haley's decision. It could be a good question to put to him at the Area Assembly in December.
However, your kerbside recycling is taken to a plant in Greenwich and using sophisticated machines and the cleverest thing of all, humans, it is separated out. After that the materials are sold on for remaking into new products. There is a question there about whether councils should negotiate contracts to get some of the money from this given the rising price of commodities such as plastic.
It isn't a con. Pictures of recycling being thrown away into landfill are the result of contamination by non recyclable materials and the company who do the job will reject a whole lorry load if they see marge tubs or yog pots in the mix which is why it is important to put the right items in there. This is rare but it does happen.
I don't work for the council environment team but I am a community volunteer and every 3 months we get together with the officers to discuss these issues and get the facts. The officers are bright and committed and they are unhampered by having to score political points off the opposition so I am inclined to believe them over the politicians, but it is a valid point to want to know the thinking behind bottle bank scrapping as the option should remain open. It may have a lot to do with the very strict Euro targets and the councils need to meet them at any cost.
Keep badgering Haley for an answer but good luck, if you get an answer share it with us. I've never had one yet.
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Yet more confusion, Liz. You describe a mechanism whereby the recycling stuff (all mixed up and therefore inherently useless) is sorted into genuinely recyclable heaps, except sometimes, when it isn't because its mixed up with some other stuff.
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No I don't see that as confusion. Many types of plastic are not suitable for recycling, many of the manufacturers in an attmpt at 'greenwash' put symbols on their products which are essentially meaningless with little recycling symbols around them and a number but this does not mean they are suitable for putting in the green box or indeed in a recycling bank. The rule of thumb on what plastics you can put in is that if it is bottle shaped, it is okay:shampoo, washing up, milk containers etc. If people put the wrong things in, then the contractor will reject the load as contaminated. I'm not sure how often this happens but that is why council officers will spot check people's bins or why the recycling lorry will sometimes leave a box to stop it getting through to the contractor.
With food waste, people are using any bag marked compostable but it must have this symbol to be taken:
Tetrapacks can be put in special bins at key points round the borough. Find out where here
The glass is the only sticking point in that if you mix colours, then it can't be recycled back into glass. The option is at the moment still there to keep those out and put them in the recycling bottle banks.
We have to make the system work for people as chucking it all in landfill is not an option, the ideal is for people to reduce all rubbish through composting, reusing and avoiding overpackaging but we must be realistic and find ways that are achievable for people. I hope such negative images peddled by politicians do not put people off recycling.
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Initial Response from Cabinet Member Haley
Dear Mr Essex,
Thank you for your email received in my office on 24th November 2008. I was interested to read the comments made by Lynne Featherstone MP and am awaiting further information before I send you a full response and reassure you of the value of recycling.
Cllr Brian Haley
Cabinet Member for Environment and Conservation
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I trust that you will print out this email and hang it on the wall. A direct email from the councillor is as rare as hen's teeth. :) Please keep us posted on his follow up.
Tom, sorry I don't know the answer but I was told it wasn't that common, perhaps because the collectors don't take boxes that have 'rogue' materials in. I think the signs on plastics are confusing, my husband still tries to put all plastics in, but the bottle rule has made it easier for us to remember.
I'm wondering what happens to those people who don't have kerbside recycling, such as people who have timed waste collections, but who want to recycle if they remove the bottle banks...
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Permalink Reply by matt on
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I have seen the trucks collecting the glass at Turnpike Lane recycling station empty all the different coloured glass so diligently sorted by the public into the same trailer (ie. compartments aren't used). So I'm guessing that glass goes to the road industry anyway.
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There's a link here to an article about recycling but I was none the wiser after reading it.
As I said above, this whole issue might be better approached via the area assembly face to face with the councillor.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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I was chatting to to an American friend - thank you Skype - about their election and the views of ordinary Americans (and Brits) on environmental issues. I mentioned an article which suggested humans were now like frogs in a pot, who fail to notice that the water is slowly heating-up.
"Ah, but frogs have noticed," he said. "It's just that their only solution is for all the other frogs to keep swimming from the left side of the pot to the right or vice versa."
What information do we all need about recycling? Plain, straightforward, practical, unbiased information and advice. As far as possible it needs to come from trusted independent sources; and be based on the most up-to-date science.
Sure there are contentious and uncertain issues. Which should be described as such; with the implications explained as clearly as possible.
What don't we need? Biased, manipulative advice from corporate and media interests. What Liz calls 'greenwash'. Nor do we need point-scoring from elected politicians.
It's perfectly legitimate for Lynne Featherstone, Brian Haley - or even me - to raise sceptical questions about recycling. But the future of the planet is too serious to reduce this to a party game.
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