50+ fly-tipping hot spots in Haringey

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Permalink Reply by Anna Maria Dipino on July 21, 2014 at 23:38

Beresford Road should be added to the list and Veoila are a complete and utter joke.

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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on July 22, 2014 at 0:32

I don't know the reason Veolia were unwilling to disclose the 50 fly-tipping "hotspots". Although it's just possible that they were afraid to encourage fly-tipping by the "traditional white-van-man" looking for somewhere to dump. Had you thought of that?

In any case, had you a particular constructive purpose in mind when posting this list?  I'm not saying there isn't one. But I'd like you to explain it, please.

When your LibDem colleague Karen Alexander and I were councillors we served on a Scrutiny Panel on waste and fly-tipping etc.  Karen made valuable contributions to the discussions.

One of the things which we established was that the figures for fly-tip reports were highly dubious. (This may have changed since. ) It was because the definition of a "fly-tip" included a single bag. With a pile of five of twentyfive bags piled-up elsewhere still counted as a single fly-tip. This definition was set by an Environment Agency database called "Flycapture". It seemed almost certain that some other London boroughs did not follow the same definition.

Because of that database, it wouldn't "be interesting to know how these figures compare with other London  boroughs".  Because the LibDems do already know the number of fly-tips recorded by other London Boroughs.  Also - I may be wrong - but I seem to recall a Press Release on this.

Asha I hope that I am wrong. Because if I'm right it suggests that your Party is still engaged in the same sterile yah-boo politics that achieved so little in the past four years. The residents of Haringey desperately need and deserve better than this to oppose the appallingly incompetent Kober Regime and its right-wing Tory policies.

I know that many of my Labour party colleagues are deeply unhappy with my "speaking truth to power"  in public criticism of them and the Council. But the fair-minded people also know that when I have raised problems I always try to suggest potential solutions as well.

So I'm very disappointed you've not made a single suggestion or come up with a fresh idea. Or an idea from somewhere else. There have been plenty on this website.

Your Twitter profile says you're a "Policy Officer". As I've explained on my Flickr photoblog that can often be a completely pointless job.  But at least on HoL, Asha, you have the opportunity to start thinking and speaking for yourself. It's also fun!

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Permalink Reply by Liz on July 22, 2014 at 0:49

Not sure I can agree with your analysis there, Alan.

Sitting on a scrutiny committee means you are privy to information that us mere voters are often blocked from knowing about or, at best, it's like getting blood out of a stone.

I know you are dubious about the value of 'Flycapture' and I understand your reasons but just getting this company to tell you what they are doing to tackle to problem is very difficult - it's all "we will pass your comments on to the team" or "thank you for your suggestion". Never any concrete feedback on any action requested.

You may be right to question Asha's motives and point out that she has a 'job' at LDHQ but then a few of the *councillors* we have to rely on to fight our corner have similar jobs in the Party. Should we wonder to whom they will show loyalty when the residents and the Party don't see eye to eye? Asha might just be fed up with fly tipping, which is becoming a serious issue across the borough again. After a brief honeymoon with this company, their response times and clean up rates are at the levels of the old Accord dark days. This isn't yah boo politics - there's support from members of all parties for action and for holding Veolia up to some sort of scrutiny - because something isn't right and we need to find out what.

However, they must be doing something, so we can, at least, see where they think the problems lie and what they think they can do about it.

Residents (and Asha is a resident as well as a LD member ) shouldn't have to provide the solutions to problems when people are paid to do it - even though some of us choose to add our two euros worth on a regular basis - there is a risk that by asking for solutions along with a problem raised you silence people who are merely fed up, want something done and don't have the time to ponder answers. Asha asked some questions, now its up to all of us to consider what the answers we have here mean for the campaign to make good the Koberclaim that we live in one of the "cleanest boroughs"

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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on July 22, 2014 at 1:43

Actually, Liz, I don't agree that Veolia are now as bad at keeping the streets clean as Accord. I don't have anything like the same photographic record of Green Lanes and the Ladder roads as I have of High Road Tottenham and the streets near our home. But back in 2003 when I bought my first digital camera, the standard my old photos show was shocking. And had been for several years; and stayed dire in many places. It has improved!

I didn't know Asha worked in LibDem HQ, Liz. I've now looked at her profile on the LibDem website which says "Policy Officer with a cancer charity".  And while I agree with you that residents are not paid to come up with solutions to the problems of dumping etc, that's never stopped you!  (Though the closed-minds in Haringey Council refused to pay attention to you.)

Let's also remember that Asha stood to be a councillor. Had national politics worked out differently, she'd now be one. Perhaps she may stand again. So I'm genuinely interested in her own observations, thoughts and reflections on these problems.

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Permalink Reply by John D on July 22, 2014 at 7:09

Maybe distance lends enchantment but I don't remember pre-Veolia days as being bad over here. I don't remember bags of Accord rubbish piled up in the streets ( but then, they weren't purple so perhaps less obvious  ) I feel that the present disgraceful state is due to two things

- the move to 2 weekly collections - a Council decision, not Veolia

- a shift in the demographics and increase in multi-occupancy

I have to admire the Veolia workers on the street who really put effort into it.

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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on July 22, 2014 at 8:39

- the move to 2 weekly collections - a Council decision, not Veolia

This is significant. Two-weekly general rubbish collection suits me personally, just fine, as I generate little rubbish and my food waste is composted by a neighbour.

However, I estimate there is a small proportion of streets in our Borough (under five per cent?) for which exceptions need to be made to the council's ONE SIZE FITS ALL policy.

In Highgate Ward – where I am one of the three local councillors who work on behalf of residents – there are perhaps two or three streets (out of about 90 -100 streets) for which the fortnightly policy is unsatisfactory and it needs to be changed to weekly. They are:

• Milton Avenue
• Milton Road
• Milton Park (part of, possibly)

These streets largely feature HMOs with no front gardens. Maximum-capacity bins are arranged in a long line along the pavement, offering obstruction to pedestrians, including the blind, elderly, disabled and mobility scooters. Weekly collection would reduce the need for such capacity on the pavement.

I have little doubt that there are other roads in the Borough where the council needs to adjust its policy. Unfortunately, ONE SIZE does not FIT ALL. So far, the council resists improving the service to these streets. At the recent area forum, however, I was pleased to see cross-party co-operation on behalf of residents and a resolution about this chronic problem was passed unanimously.

--

In Stroud Green, over the North London line, fly-tipping used to happen on the Oakfield Road bridge.

The bridge (obviously) remains not-overlooked by houses. Since the imposition of CPZs in the area, beginning some years ago with Pay-and-Display in Finsbury Park, parking now generally occupies the bridge and there's less opportunity for builder's van-loads of rubble, car-wrecks or similar, to be dumped.

However, it was a chronic problem, don't doubt it's happening elsewhere and can be a huge eyesore. It gives an impression that an area is uncared for.

Councillor—Highgate Ward

Liberal Democrat Party

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Permalink Reply by Gordon T on July 22, 2014 at 9:17

Indeed - and the rebuilding of the bridge parapets and associated fencing renewal has made that local area look a bit more 'cared for' - it was 'please tip here' before, it seemed to me.

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Permalink Reply by Liz on July 22, 2014 at 13:15

Well yes, see my later comment. You can't change the demographic so you have to try and work out ways to work with them to change these habits. That's where the council and Veolia can do more than just sweep up after the many and fine the few they manage to catch. The 'running to stand still' model isn't working.

It should be said that Veolia pledged to *reduce* fly tipping by 50% in 2 years, although how they reach that figure, where they started from and what they consider success is still a bit if a mystery. 

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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on July 22, 2014 at 15:00

Finding ways to change habits. Absolutely! Pushes and nudges and incentives in the right direction.

So let's not forget the "perverse incentive" of a prompt and efficient clearance but without corresponding change in behaviour. This morning there was a fresh pile of dumped bags on the pavement by a litter bin in our street. It was cleared around midday.

The next time we walk by I expect there'll be a few more bags. Perhaps some people will think this is "good service" from Veolia?  Even that they're "helping" by leaving bagged waste where it'll soon be collected?

_______________________________

By the way, I dug out my notes of a 1999 meeting with Keith Collins who first pointed me to Canadian experience. And a link to a BBC programme where he answered calls and emails. Apologies if I posted it before.

Attachments:

• KeithCollins.doc, 30 KB

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Permalink Reply by Liz on July 22, 2014 at 21:30

Did they give any indication of targets for reducing fly tipping? Or rather than moving the goalposts,  have they simply removed them altogether? After all performance management is much easier if you set yourself no targets.

Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on July 23, 2014 at 1:28

Asha, Can I suggest you check this out with Cllr Stuart McNamara.

Permalink Reply by Mr Wodjacallim on August 1, 2014 at 11:25

Have they produced a Benefits Realisation Report, independently audited then?

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