because there is no adequate public transport.
Once the route is available people will definitely use the bus to get to the shops, the tube, the park, and to visit local areas.
I agree with Stephen that for this route to be successful it cannot be too long and want to throw some ideas to think about:
• Use Finsbury PARK for exclusive bus access to the park, Finsbury Park station and Lidl supermarket – bus stop could be located at the back of the park by the gates near the station. This would avoid buses getting stuck in the traffic towards Stroud Green/Finsbury Park using main routes.
• Bus route suggestion – have two routes instead of one
o short shopping & tube route - linking Wood Green, Wightman Rd, Finsbury PARK (for access to
the park, the station and Lidl) and Sainsbury’s
o longer route: linking local areas – perhaps Crouch End and Muswell Hill?
• Make it FREE for local residents
I know it’s a long way before, and if, anything happens...but will keep my fingers crossed.…
in wheelchairs, older people, etc. Last night the park was pitch black, and very dangerous. (That's why it's kept closed after dusk!). There was a murder/rape here last year, the ground is very rough, lots of trees and a canal.
Thanks to the staff who turned out last night to address the problem, but the general level of information and support for the public was very poor (9.30pm). There was no information on the trains or at the station. One fire officer was at the south end. (It's not his job to manage pedestrians). One police officer was at the north end trying to cope with pedestrians, residents, angry drivers from Sainsburys who could see a green traffic light but him telling them to stop, etc. There needs to be clear information as alternative routes are not simple in this area, and there must be CPOs or other staff to help people with mobility problems and women who do not want to be alone in that park.
Thanks again to those who were trying to help.
Dr Chris Williams…
velopment of the Heartlands and the increasing inability of the Council to stop HMOs in the Ladder resulting in many more people sharing this space.
Before anyone starts bandying nimbyism around, I fully support homes being built in London but what seems to happen is that very little thought is put into how the hospitals, schools, roads, GPs etc are going to manage. Granted there is a new secondary school for the Heartlands, but what about the primary sector? Maternity services are stretched to the limit now, I have heard no talk of new hospitals being built. Social care cannot cope with demand, waste management is dodgy and so on and that is before these new developments appear. The traffic situation is a nightmare and the talk is only of improving retail,, a bigger Sainsbury's perhaps?
In Holland, new building projects start with the infrastructure first and the housing comes after the infrastructure is up and running, here we seem to throw up housing, allow unfettered development and give permission for large scale building projects with little thought for how the services are going to cope.
What worries me is how this corner of North London is going to cope with more people being squeezed in, and no mention of expanding capacity in primary schools, hospitals etc and the impact on the roads and amenities.…
l be a murder cus of lost tempers. I hate just trying to cross by there to walk to the tube. Even we meek pedestrians get shouted at just for wanting to cross the road when the light is in our favour!
I dont take bus to the tube now, it takes too long. I also think it's not just Sainsburys- there is a mini retail park with its own car park, Sainso's, a petrol station and a McDonalds all using one feed road into the already very busy Green lanes. Good planning to all that lot together dont you think? The jam has been worsened by cars coming in and out of the shopping arena. Possible solution- knock down Mcdonalds so there is one less burden there, turn that into a small bus terminus for the W5 plus a new local bus that might do nicely along Wightman road. it can be an interchange with Green Lanes overground and also be a place for the rail replacement bus when that line is not working. There are plenty of other places to eat along here, we dont need that mcdonalds but we do need more public transport and a good flowing traffic system.
all the best…
move again this weekend.
A protest march is planned for tomorrow, Sunday,13th January. It is anticipated that it will set off from Dalston and will travel north along the A10 to Stoke Newington Church Street and then into Harringay, ending at the Kurdish Community Centre on Portland Gardens.
If you're planning to use any of the roads - or visit Sainsbury's - be aware that there will be sever traffic disruption. I don't have any timings as yet but will let you know as soon as I hear anything.
Thanks to Cllr Canver, for passing on this information.
…
ain, looking more like something from the 1830s. The Tottenham & Hampstead Junction Railway opened between Highate Road and Tottenham on 21st July 1868.
Green Lanes station opened on 1st June 1880. It was renamed Harringay Park, Green Lanes in 1883, Harringay Park on 18th June 1951, Harringay Stadium on 27th October 1958 (following rebuilding), Harringay East on 12th June 1990 and finally Harringay Green Lanes 8th July 1991!
When I started work on "the Branch" in 1989, the station was still named Harringay Stadium and still possessed its full length platforms, able to accommodate at least ten coaches, with a disused staircase and entrance/exit that had served the stadium. The entrance off Green Lanes was through the booking hall (still standing last time I was there), staffed on early turn by Margaret. It is still possible to see the bricked up subway which then gave access to the down (eastbound) platform.
I'm fairly sure that Sainsbury's opened in 1990, because the staff joke at the time was that the station should have been renamed Harringay Sainsbury's instead of Harringay East. I think MacDonald's opened the following year which may be when the units opposite opened. So perhaps the plaque was commissioned either by the developer or LB Haringey to mark the completion of the redevelopment. Perhaps BR was also prevailed upon to change the name of the station one more time!
I was a resident signalman at South Tottenham from 1990 until 2010 and I remember not long before I finished getting a mobile phone call from a 'light' locomotive that was being used for a driver 'road learning' trip asking if I had any following traffic and if not could they stop at Harringay and get something from MacDonald's!
Glenn Wallis, Secretary, Barking - Gospel Oak Rail User Group…
hemselves planning permission to re-develop the Hornsey Town Hall into 130 or so flats, (out of which ONLY 4 flats are earmarked as affordable housing). A planning application paid for by you an me to the tune of round about a million pound some allege... Why? To make it an attractive proposition for a future developer, we have been told... And here we are again – Haringey are selling off to a developer ‘Sainsbury’ this time, another piece of our public pie –it’s share of the ‘Hornsey Works site’. Despite of all the issues raised in the Hornsey Journal item, it failed to touch on the real issues (in my humble view) Yes there is going to be a traffic impact, or to be more precise a parking issue - NOT BY SAINSBURY though, they will provide a car park, (more on that in my account below) but by the large number of flats planned for this development, adding to and mirroring the parking misery experienced by residents living in the new river village. I was amazed how we are encouraged by the talking heads in this article (HJ) to get preoccupied with issues, which we will have no way to impact upon. Is our attention being deliberately diverted (excuse the pan, which is totally intended) onto traffic issues, making sure the real issues are totally forgotten?
The fact that Haringey are selling off yet another public asset... Under what conditions? For how much? Is that the best deal for you and me? How many flats could be be built? and what proportion of it is going to be affordable or social housing, if any? Is that development going to be conditioned as CAR FREE DEVELOPMENT, or used to further plans to carpet the whole of Haringey with the lucrative cash caw also know as CPZ, or both?
All those issues are mute...
A local newspaper says:
"Residents fear erecting a 40,000 sq ft Sainsbury's superstore and up to 230 new homes on the former Hornsey Depot site, off High Street, Hornsey, will worsen traffic congestion."
I seem to recall the original plan was for 10,000 sq ft Supermarket, with 190 parking places and 600 flats, 300 of which to built for Haringey, I assume that was meant to be the much needed social housing...
I wonder what happens to the original plan? Or is it still on the cards, but someone is hoping we have short memory or maybe that '230 new homes' is far more palatable, compared with the real and final plan for 600 units? Or maybe Sainsbury drove a hard bargain and got permission to build 40,000 sq ft store leaving less space for housing on the site? Out of the 230 units mentioned, are any going to be affordable, or social housing? If so how many?
Then to finish off we have:
"Councillor Joe Goldberg, Labour cabinet member for finance and sustainability, said: "In these difficult times for the market, I am excited that these plans are coming forward to bring much-needed regeneration to this particular part of Hornsey, providing both jobs and affordable housing."
Difficult time indeed... Resulting no doubt amongst other things, by the ill advised investment of nearly 40 million of our council tax £££ in ICE, which has melted away... Any news on that?
I heard through the vines that despite a clear Gov directive not to invest more then 20 mil in one place, Haringey put it all on ICE, they will say they have divided it into 2 lots am put it in 2 different banks, but as it turns out one was actually a subsidiary of the other...
To be fair to Councillor Goldberg this was not his doing, but his predecessor... However either way should selling off another public asset to private hands be the remedy? And at which cost, is what I would like to know.
HOW DO I KNOW ALL OF THIS?
Few years ago I was invited to a private meeting held in crouch end, the meeting was organised by Crouch End traders to discuss the possible ways of which this development could be opposed, if at all?
In the meeting were present 2 prominent traders from Crouch End, A local councillor and myself.
It became very apparent very quickly that the deal was already done! That a plan was approved, was appealed by HIPE and was lost. And that this development was to go ahead no matter what opposition could be mastered.
The meeting, as one can imagine, was concentrated on maintaining and protecting the commercial interest of the crouch end traders who feared a large Sainsbury WITH FREE PARKING down the road is not going to be good for business.
To put this story into perspective in terms of it’s timeline and context in terms of the Hornsey Journal talking heads discussion re traffic issue, this meeting took place very shortly after Haringey have put in place the Pay and Display scheme in both Crouch End and Muswell Hill and after a huge campaign by many west of Haringey local groups to stop the spread of residential CPZ, which like it’s ‘pay and display’ sister, had no real merit apart from plugging Haringey council budgetary hole...
Any how back to the meeting... With all the information above laid bare on the table, the meeting went very quickly into a discussion of how could the Crouch End traders could mitigate the adverse effect of FREE PARKING in Hornsey in contrast with their new predicament of pay and display parking. The councillor present had a bright idea; Campaign to force Sainsbury to CHARGE FOR THE PARKING, thereby levelling the competition field...
At this point, I politely excused myself from any possible engagement with any future campaign regarding pushing this envelop and heard nothing of it since...
Now 3, 4 years down the line this comes up again... It’s funny... A week ago I had a good root around my papers a weed out / de-clutter exercise ,as one does from time to time... I came across a fancy booklet titled ‘Hornsey Works’ I was given in this meeting, where I made some notes during the meeting. I held it in my hand recalling the meeting and thinking to myself - should I keep this? should I get read of it? And then I put it on the ‘to keep’ pile! I still have it in case anyone is interested I can probably scan it.
Reading the posts on the local Yahoo group (we at HoL won't tell you who started that thread!) on the about the latest development re this site, I fished out this booklet in no time... Having looked through it again, I noticed that at the time - Haringey part owned the site with Sainsbury and were planning to develop it in partnership with other bodies and companies... One in particular leaped off the page... It is 'Inner Circle' again! This I guess, is what happens when one is paying attention over time. It is to do with another story I got involved researching about a year or 2 ago – It is another Haringey public asset, but very much the same players...
This was a story of the Welbourne Centre site in Tottenham, A community centre which was marked for rich picking (Development) Which involved some really doggy dealing of another prominent Haringey councillor who’s actions and integrity came into question too many times in the mind of some, and in particular one of his own colleagues, who started looking more closely into this questionable dealing, which was also investigated by an outer authority and was covered up big time by his party, who is still the ruling party in Haringey, and he is still an elected councillor even after it was fully exposed by another brave councillor, who got suspended from his party as a result of bringing this issue to public attention...
I know it all sounds vague, I could go and on... But I am short of time and wonder if any one is really interested...
Below are links to the detailed account of this story for those who are really interested.
FOR THE DIE HARD - MORE INFO ON THE HORNSEY DEPOT
If you've read so far down, you might be interested in more background info:
Plans for Hornsey Depot site back on track (Hornsey Journal)
New plans agreed for Hornsey Depot site (Haringey Council website)
With a Ladder and Some Glasses - Hornsey Thameslink Depot (London R...
Hornsey Thameslink Depot (London Reconnections Blog)
David Winskill, 50, London borough of Haringey (The Guardian)
Haringey Solidarity Regeneration Subgroup (As Title)
Signed by Ofer, Green N8
…
funnel cars onto Hermitage Road and block the only vehicle exit for hundreds of residences in the area. I therefore wrote to two Haringey councillors and today received the following helpful and speedy reply from Cllr Claire Kober:
Thanks for copying me into your email below to Cllr Haley and apologies for the delay in responding to you. I have been on holiday and only returned to the UK on Sunday evening so it’s taken a few days to catch up with my emails.
I am concerned about the current problems with vehicles exiting the arena shopping area and I am keen to see the issue resolved. That said, like you, I would be concerned were permission granted to allow traffic to exit the area via Finsbury Park Avenue. Having spoken to the council’s highways department and to Cllr Haley, I have been told that such permission has not been granted.
As I understand it, while there has been a discussion about the possibility of enabling emergency vehicles to access the site via Finsbury Park Avenue in emergency situations, there are no plans to open this up as a possibility for other vehicles. Further, as you may be aware, Finsbury Park Avenue is a private road – owned by London and Quadrant housing association – and so the council could not take a decision in any case.…
nd the whole shopping experience a total bore and a great waste of my time, so we tend to journey to a supermarket once every 2 weeks usually over the weekend... we spent 45 min to an hour gathering every thing we need for 2 weeks and an hour snailing out of the car park.
Walking while carrying 2 weeks shopping up the hill to Hornsey Vale is not a practical option in our case. However When we need to go to Green Lanes for any other purpose we walk!
I thought I should point out another observation while I am at it...
Although we have been caught up in the traffic madness few times it is interesting to note that as a result of:
* The enlargement of Sainsbury
*The rerouting of the W5
*Increased number of parking spaces devoted to disabled parking
There are far less parking spaces compared with before.
Despite all of the above, we never experienced a problem with finding a parking space. In my view it demonstrate that the problem does not stem from an increase numbers of shoppers who come by car. However there might be others who can tell a different story.
Now we either shop else where or get there very early Saturday morning.…
people that don't know their bus routes and probably extremely annoying for people that do. Unless someone on Wikipedia is having a laugh, this technical wizardry is down to buses being fitted with GPS and gyroscopes - your 141 is not just a bus, it is an iBus.
It all sounds rather marvelous, but it is difficult to reconcile the statement 'We also send data directly to traffic lights where timings can be altered to help speed up buses so reducing the problems of congestion.' with a world that allows the Sainsbury's gridlock situation, and having just stood at a bus stop showing 'Next 141 in 13 minutes' only for two 141s to turn up at once.
(PS. Most likely the 29 has this as well, but I travel even less often on that route.)
(PPS. The announcement for the Rowley Gardens stop pronounced it as rhyming with 'Owww', rather than 'Oh'.... Is this correct?)…