s and did not speed up the traffic. Our roads became gridlocked with furious motorists hooting, swearing and filling the air with fumes. This went on for quite a while and it once took me an hour to leave my own road. While I appreciate it is unpleasant to get stuck in a shopping centre car park, at least people had the choice to go there and maybe some nice snacks to eat while waiting which they had purchased at Sainsbury's
The section of Eade road you refer to as being industrial is about 1/8 of the area in question, the rest being terraced houses.
Perhaps a solution is to reduce the number of parking spaces available and put a sign up at the entrance to the arena saying how many spaces there are and what the expected waiting time is so people can make an informed decision.…
it less likely that people will choose other forms of transport. What I find most offensive about this is the suggestion that someone who is inclined to drive will choose another form of transport without doing anything to make that alternative form of transport as easy and convenient as driving. There's just no way someone would choose to cycle or walk when they usually get in the car - unless serious and meaningful improvements are made to make travelling by foot/bike as easy as getting into a car - they will just drive somewhere else. The plan talks of 'encouraging' non-car travel but there's not even any mention of badly needed improvements in cycle parking. Sainsburys' inconvenient, theft-magnet cycle parking is why I don't shop there and will continue to shop elsewhere.…
dents of the area.
Firstly, one person's experience proves little but my journeys were displaced onto other roads. Instead of using Green Lanes to go regularly to Sainsbury's, I changed to crossing over onto West Green Road and went to Tottenham Tesco instead. During the closure, I would go to Tottenham Hale instead of Muswell Hill. Again, on my weekly trips to Maidstone, I would go via West Green Road instead of Green Lanes/ St Anns.
There are two ways of assessing the impact on the surrounding roads when Wightman was closed - number of vehicle movements and, alternatively, time taken to get from A to B, which is what travellers are concerned about. As a selfish individual, I don't care how many vehicles are going the same way as me: I just care about how long it takes me to get there.
It is possible that the figures for the bus delays ( which I have not seen ) were averaged over the day. Were there figures broken down for 8am-10am and 4pm-6pm which is when most people actually want to use the roads ? It is certain that journeys between Priory Road and Turnpike Lane/Green Lanes junction and between Manor House and Turnpike Lane were much longer than normal at these times. Wightman Road to Turnpike Lane Station would take me 15 minutes instead of the current five.
To take two other points - the Westway did move the jams to Marybone Road, but the subsequent " Green Wave" synchronising of the traffic lights makes it possible to maintain a steady 30mph between the Westway and King's Cross, this being a non-mythical measure leading to an amelioration of traffic flow.
How are " emissions-based parking charges " relevant to traffic flow ? An electric vehicle moving at 1-mph and 2- litre BMW moving at 1 mph are equally impeding the traffic flow. …
or coming from a ladder or Wightman Road address”, you’re probably the only one who is! As far as I’m aware, no traffic survey has shown this, because nobody has been able to monitor where drivers actually start or finish their journeys. So where is the evidence? And what is “through traffic” anyway?
I’ve asked in previous posts for a definition of “local” as opposed to “through” traffic and nobody has given a reliable answer. Travel from Hornsey Park Road to Endymion via Wightman - “local” or “through” traffic? Rutland Gardens to Hornsey via Cavendish and Wightman - “local” or “through”? If road closure or selective access, so that only local (or ladder) residents are allowed on Wightman, is an answer, where - literally - do you draw the line?
And have you or anyone else living on Wightman or a ladder road never, ever, used a “residential” road (eg Oakfield, Florence or Lancaster locally, thousands elsewhere in London) to get somewhere? “Short cut” or “rat run”?
Yes, too many people want the personal liberty of being able to go wherever they want whenever they want - horrors! - so there are too many cars in London using streets that weren’t built to take them. Too many people have to commute long distances to work because they can’t afford to live in the West End or the City and public transport can be slow, expensive and unreliable. Yes, it would be lovely if everyone was fit enough to cycle everywhere, despite also needing to take children to school, carry shopping home from Sainsbury’s, take recycling to the dump, collect furniture from Ikea.... all the things “local” Harringay residents routinely do - by car.
I’ve no car axe to grind - I don’t drive and have dodgy knees, so I walk when I can and take public transport a lot. I’d love faster buses, even trams in Green Lanes; but right now I’d like not to sit in traffic jams in Green Lanes or be turfed off buses at Finsbury Park because of even worse congestion caused by the Wightman closure.
You rightly highlight past short-term expedient solutions that haven’t worked long-term. But permanent Wightman closure or ladder traffic restrictions (a “silo” solution) risk being equally short-term. How many ladder and Wightman residents think putting gates on the Gardens was a brilliant solution to Harringay’s traffic problems? Not many on HoL!
Short of creating a new route across the railway between Turnpike Lane and Endymion, we’re stuck with an impenetrable barrier on the west and a self-imposed one on the east (Gardens gates). Any solution must surely look at the whole area, preferably from the North Circular down to Manor House.…
tube " in case it's raining when I get back ".
I'm instinctively against regulating people's behaviour by statute and hate the way our masters try to modify social behaviour by charging more and more for it ( just keeping this side of losing tax revenue by actually persuading people to give up the antisocial habit ).
How about rationing fuel (petrol/diesel )? Not by price, but by issuing smart cards that allow the purchase of only so much fuel per year.
Set the ration to half what an average driver uses per year (say enough for 4000 miles per year ). Then private car usage would automatically fall by half, gas guzzlers would be able to travel less far and owners of fuel-efficient cars and people driving efficiently would benefit from having more annual miles available.
Then I have a choice - I can take the bus to Sainsbury's; I can take an umbrella to the tube; and thereby save my petrol allowance for journeys where I really need the car. But it's still MY CHOICE as to how I use my allowance. There would probably need to be flexibility in the actual amount of the ration to allow for disabled people and others who need to use their cars more than the average, but if the ration were tied into the national ID card scheme (which is going to come - have no doubt about that ) then this could easily be done and would stop people selling their ration card.
Brilliant idea or what ?
"What" probably :-)…
h, following a meeting I was invited to along with Ian Sygrave of the LCSP and local councillor (and the person with cabinet responsibility for transport), Nilgiun Canver. I'm afraid I haven't had a chance of posting till now.
I've been told unofficially that there's now a decision on how the funding will be spent.
My apologies for the length of this post, but I don't think there's any way of shortening it.
So first that reply from Joan Hancox (topped & tailed to shorten it):
The Council selected Green Lanes for investment due to the scale and range of existing problems on Green Lanes itself. This decision was taken following consultation on our Transport Local Implementation Plan in both 2009 and 2010. The first major issue for the Council is road safety. Green Lanes has one of the worse (sic) accident records in the borough for road accidents that result in personal injury and we are committed to reducing these types of accidents in the borough. The second key issue for Green Lanes is the level of congestion and the resultant effect that this has on air quality, as well as encouraging drivers to use Wightman Road as an alternative. Thirdly, it is forecast that the amount of trips will increase significantly over the next 20 years due to increasing amounts of homes and jobs in north London and beyond, and so the existing amount of traffic and people using public transport are set to increase. Green Lanes is a major bus corridor and maintaining bus reliability is seen as crucial to retaining and increasing the number of people travelling by bus. In addition, we recognise Green Lanes as an important shopping and leisure area and the need to support the viability and vitality of the area. TfL have agreed to our proposals for investment in Green Lanes of £1.25m over three years based on the development of a scheme or schemes to address these issues and we will be monitored on how well we achieve these. The underlying problem in Haringey and in most urban areas is that there is too much traffic and that this has a negative impact on both residential streets and shopping areas. Over the last ten years, there have been various schemes introduced in the Ladder Roads, Gardens and Hermitage Road area to try to alleviate the effects of traffic on residents. The general principle has been that the most traffic should be on major roads and residential roads should be protected. In the Ladder roads, each road has been made one way and a 20mph zone introduced. The impact of this has been to reduce speeds and on many roads the volume of traffic has been reduced. However, on some roads the scheme resulted in an increase of traffic. This is because there will virtually always be some form of displacement from the introduction of traffic management measures, such as one way systems. In the Gardens area and in Hermitage Road and surrounding roads, road closures were introduced to reduce rat running and HGV traffic through residential streets. This has had a beneficial effect on the roads affected by the closure and reduced the number of accidents. The traffic surveys which were undertaken following these closures were limited to the assessing the impact on flows on the closed roads or the Green Lanes/St Anne's (sic) junction and did not assess whether traffic would be dispersed over a wider area. We know that more traffic turns right at the Green Lanes/St Ann’s junction. It is likely though that the closure on Hermitage Road prevented traffic from diverting from Seven Sisters Road into Green Lanes and so traffic on the lower section of Green Lanes would have been reduced. It is more difficult to assess the impact of these closures now against a background of increasing traffic and also traffic generated by Sainsbury's and the Arena development.
The point I am making here is that there has been significant efforts made in the last ten years to alleviate the impact of traffic on residents in Harringey (sic) and St Ann's. Whilst these have been beneficial for many residents, there changes have increased traffic in some roads with a negative impact on the residential amenity. Any future changes to traffic flow are also likely to bring benefits and disbenefits and these will need to be carefully assessed for any proposals for Green Lanes. We agreed at our meeting that this analysis would be carried out and be publicly available as part of the consultation for any proposals for Green Lanes. I am sure that everyone who signed the petition has their own idea of how traffic in the area could be reduced and we have agreed to look at an alternative arrangement of the Ladder Roads with having three roads up and three roads down as well as the implications of changing the road closure on Hermitage Road to restrict HGVs but not light vehicles.
We are seeking to tackle traffic through reducing the amount of free parking for commuters and also through a major programme of encouraging cycling and walking. According to TfL data traffic peaked in Haringey in 2006 and has been reducing ever since. We have a target of 0% growth in traffic and have so far been able to exceed this target.
The arrangements for Area Committees is currently being finalised and once this is certain, a request could be made to the Chair for a debate on the petition.
I hope this has addressed the points and explained why we have prioritised Green Lanes for investment. I hope that everyone who signed the petition will become involved in the consultation on proposals and priorities for Green Lanes.
So there you have it. Let me attempt a summary:
1. The 'major issues' driving the Council's decision are:
Road safety on Green Lanes
Congestion on Green Lanes
Supporting the viability and vitality of Green Lanes as a shopping area
Maintaining bus reliability
2. The Council have introduced various traffic schemes in Harringay over the past ten years to try to alleviate the effects of traffic on residents.
The Ladder roads have been made one way and a 20mph zone introduced.
In the Gardens area, Hermitage Road and surrounding roads road closures were introduced.
3. The traffic surveys which were undertaken did not assess whether traffic would be dispersed over a wider area.
4. Future changes to traffic flow are also likely to bring benefits and disbenefits. These will be "assessed for the Green Lanes Corridor proposals" and will be carried out publicly available as part of the consultation.
5. New 'area committees' can be used to debate the Green Lanes Corridor proposals. Area Committees are likely to introduced as the basis of local democracy. If confirmed, they can be used by residents to discuss the issue.
6. The Council will engage in a limited review of two of the traffic schemes introduced over the last ten years. They will consider whether any alternative traffic arrangement could improve traffic flow on the Ladder rung roads. The Hermitage Road closure will also be revisited to investigate the possibility of restrict HGVs but not light vehicles.
So what does it all mean? Who knows, but what strikes me are the following issues:
1. In point 1 above, the reasons stated as driving the Council's decision are overwhelmingly not related to the interests of Harringay residents. The only mention of residents' interests is a passing one to the effect that the restriction of traffic flow on Green Lanes shifts traffic on to the Wightman Road.
"The second key issue for Green Lanes is the level of congestion and the resultant effect that this has on air quality, as well as encouraging drivers to use Wightman Road as an alternative."
But let's also be clear what this means. This is Haringey's traffic boss acknowledging that traffic congestion/restriction on Green Lanes shifts traffic on to the Wightman Road and therefore, by implication to the whole Ladder.
2. As point 2 above makes very clear, there has been a markedly different treatment of traffic in Harringay ward from that used in St Ann's. Why? In a recent meeting I asked Ms Hancox why. Her response was that the schemes were undertaken at different times and reflected the prevailing traffic control orthodoxy. She said they would not be reviewed in the context of an overall review of Harringay traffic. I was unable to discern an explanation as to why.
3. None of the schemes has been undertaken with a view of how it will impact on the wider area. Need I say more? This gives me little faith that any new scheme will, in reality, be undertaken any consideration of the impacts on local people.
So that brings me to what will be happening within the remit of the Green Lanes Corridor scheme. What I've heard is unconfirmed, but I understand that a decision has been taken to go with just one of the three schemes presented. They've apparently chosen to go with the option which broadens pavements on Green Lanes and restricts traffic to prioritise buses. And what'll happen to that traffic? I guess that'll be one of the disbenefits - to the residents of course - as Ms Hancox points out, restricting traffic on Green Lanes diverts it to the Ladder.
As far as I understand things, this option doesn't reflect what local residents say they want. There were however elements in the other two, now apparently discarded, options that reflect what residents have said they want. (see post linked to in last paragraph).
Ms. Hancox closes by saying she hopes that residents will "become involved in the consultation on proposals and priorities for Green Lanes". I agree and very much hope we get a chance. If my understanding is right (and I hope I've not been misinformed), three options have been whittled down to one following the first stage of invitation only consultation, pretty much in spite of residents' wishes. So the room left for consultation is significantly narowed. I very much hope they'll listen to local opinion in the remaining consultation (and yes even where its not he same as my own) and and that the local opinion will make itself heard beyond the voices like mine and the two small local residents' groups.
…
he Ladder roads.
Hale Village - Haringey's "largest ever development" - 1200 new homes, hotel, 50,000 sq ft retail space, supermarket etc - the Ladder is on the East-West route to Tottenham Hale - more shops = more traffic.
St Ann's Hospital development - unknown number of new homes.
Woodberry Down Estate Development - 1,980 homes become 4,300 homes, 50% private.
City North, Finsbury Park - 480 homes + shopping
Hornsey Concrete Factory - heavy vehicles already using Ladder roads unchecked.
Hornsey Depot Development - 300 new homes + new Sainsbury's
Haringey Heartlands - 1500 new homes + workplaces etc
Poor old Harringay is right in the middle of all of this and as of today, no thought is being given to, nor planning considered for the effects on Harringay and how to mitigate them.
Am I the only one concerned?…
we can criticise too much if some postings that go up are perhaps inappropriate. As a community site, these discussions are own own and we have to take responsibility for what we say and how these are handled. The discussions are usually organic, they start on thing like traffic coming out of Sainsburys, and end up discussing the relative snob value attached to shopping or not shppoing at Iceland, for example.
People got scared about the Pemberton road incident and I think were sharing their fears, anxieties and yes, probably bits of rumour and gossip as well. But with the police not giving out details, then this is bound to happen. I think overall that the tone of the discussion and sharing of info was acceptable. Plus I dont think the site adminstrators have ever claimed to speak on behalf of the community, they have never purported to represent the community. This is a website and people chat about things.
all the very best
Ruth C…
een Lanes?)
Just walked round to Sainsburys and the traffic gridlocked, again, with a real jam all ways. I know the current road works have added to this but where is the change management round there? we often have that logjam discussed on HoL. The poor W5 passengers were'nt going anywhere fast and I saw a couple of cyclists nearly knocked off their bikes due to fed up drivers trying to reverse out... I see and feel the increased pollution round here in my flat. The 'dust' when I get round to dusting, is black. We are breathing in this lovely stuff! Those with kids should send them out with gasmasks on.
Never mind the dangers of passive smoking- we are passively being force-fed exhaust fumes.
…
ood. Also, it's way past time that the parking at the Sainsburys etc at the "retail park" was removed completely and turned into a proper park for local children to play in, with grass, trees and squirrels. No-one needs to drive to get groceries in this area. The traffic disgorging from the retail park into Green Lanes is a nightmare. Haringey Council were so keen to grab the money from the retail park owners, to inflate their already bloated salaries, they as usual showed no concern for the local people who struggle to walk, travel by bus, or ride a bike. There could still be priority parking for those with disabilities, or for taxis and the local "hopper bus" service (which I think is a wonderful service). It's time that everyone took a bit more exercise, and that the Council and its money-grubbing apparatchiks started to serve the people of Haringey, rather than lining their own pockets.…