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Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!

Visitor Parking Permits

I do not often need permits and had a folder full which I have come to use this week as we are having some roof work done and they ran out last year.  We have tried to get through the phone and emailed and not having any luck.  Can you still go to the Library and queue and get them in person as I need to get hold of about 10 days worth.

As I understand the ones I have I just lose as well?  What I don't understand is that this is not made easy and you can't buy in too much bulk in case you don't use and they will not swap.  I do not understand how this process can still be so painful.

Thanks for any help or ideas.

Julia

Tags for Forum Posts: parking, parking permits

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Permalink Reply by Katie K on December 2, 2018 at 22:44

Hi Hugh,

Don't shoot the messenger but I found a 2018 'Made' T12 order on this page that looks like it's the one :

https://www.haringey.gov.uk/parking-roads-and-travel/roads-and-stre...

30 March 2018 Made Parking Charges (ZIP, 331KB)

The 'Statement of Reasons' doc contains the following:

"It is therefore proposed that the offer be limited to an hourly and daily visitor parking permit. This would remove the need for an upper limit on numbers that can be purchased. It is however expected, that those permits would be used within the year purchased and not stock piled for future years, where further car restraints measures may be required.  Unused permits would therefore not be exchanged or refunded. It is also proposed that the charge for hourly permits be increased to 80p per hour, bringing it more in line with charges applied in other London boroughs. "

And the NOM doc says:

PROPOSED AMENDMENTS TO ON STREET PARKING PERMITS AND CHARGES

The Haringey (Controlled Parking Zones) (Amendment No. 1) Order 2018

T12

  1. NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that the Council of the London Borough of Haringey on 29th March 2018 made the above mentioned Order under sections 45, 46 and 124 of and Part IV of Schedule 9 to the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, as amended.and para 2(c) includes re visitors permits:

Unused permits will therefore not be exchanged or refunded.

Katie K

Permalink Reply by Katie K on December 2, 2018 at 23:02

...but having said that, I don't think it should be allowed to apply retrospectively to permits that were bought prior to this order being made and coming in to force. I have a load of permits that expire in 2018 and I will definitely try and get a refund.

Katie

Permalink Reply by Hugh on December 3, 2018 at 0:23

Aha, hiding away without the order name in its title! As I said above, it was possible for me to have missed it since I didn't open every document linked to on that page.

Thanks Katie. Well done for ploughing through them.

I'm attaching below the three files contained in that zip file.

The 1st (the NOM document) is the public notice. The second (the SOR document) is the statement of reasons. The wording of both of those is phrased in the conditional tense using the word proposed. So it looks to me like those have been copied using the language from the proposal. As far as I'm aware neither carries any legal force. 

The third document the ( [Made] document ) is as far as I can see the legal order that carries legal weight.

As far as I can see, to stop refunds of visitors' permits being given, the new order would need to reword, replace or revoke Article 28 of TMO, 61, The Haringey (Green Lanes CPZ) (Parking Places) Order 2007 under which they used to be made.

That's where I run out of expertise. The NOM and SOR tell us that the order has the effect of stopping visitor permit refunds. However, since the Council previously told me the opposite of what was true about the contents of the last traffic order, I'm cautious. I'd welcome some legal / bureaucratic expertise that explains to me where in T12, 2018 Article 28 of T61, 2007 is revoked - or is the effect of T12, 2018 to revoke the previous TMO in is entirety?

They don't make it easy for we residents, eh!

Attachments:
Permalink Reply by LINDA MUD MASON ROYLES on December 1, 2018 at 0:16

I went to the library at the weekend when I wasnt working, to be told that the office was only issuing parking vouchers during the week. I feel your pain

If you get stuck you can get some of us. I am no longer working full time, and had to ditch the car. So holler  (ideally by text) if you get stuck and are happy to pay. I am based near Finsbury Park station.

Linda

07971 881229

Permalink Reply by Roslyn Byfield on December 1, 2018 at 21:54
This is really useful, Hugh, as this week I have tried to get a refund and been refused. I think this is outrageous and I've got a local councillor looking into it for me. Meanwhile several neighbours have just binned theirs. This is most unfair as we buy these in good faith and it's hard to predict how many we will need.
Permalink Reply by pamish on December 1, 2018 at 22:05

This revives my pain about the stack of old permits I tried to use when it took time to get a new pass when I changed my car in May. So if I can have another go at either a refund or a swap for current ones, I'm following this thread. 

PS I tried using the old ones for a four-hour period when I was queing to get the new permit. Got a ticket. Challenged it, and it was cancelled with the usual 'not a precedent' rider.

Permalink Reply by Hugh on December 1, 2018 at 23:36

You should both have a go. Quote the sources I used. The worst they can do is say no and if they do so, ask them to explain their grounds. 

Permalink Reply by Matt D on December 2, 2018 at 12:44

In Southwark the whole process can be done online using your vehicle reg and council tax number.

Wonder if the Haringey app could accommodate it? ;)

Permalink Reply by Juliawoo on December 3, 2018 at 11:11

Just an update to this I emailed them last Monday as it would not accept my permit ref number and Applicant ID as I believe they changed the system earlier this year.

This permit is not currently at a stage where vouchers can be purchased. If you believe this is incorrect, please contact us by email at permits-vouchers@haringey.gov.uk.

Which I did and have not heard a thing.  A friend was able to get some by queuing at the Library last week but I am gobsmacked at how little regard they have for us as residents.  I just want some visitor permits for tradespeople to work at my flat and I have to hold down a job myself not keep queuing at the library for something that should be simple.  

I know this is completely different but I have never understood why the Crouch End side only has to use permits like  this for 2 hours whist we need them for 10 hours at a cost to the resident.  The whole thing is a shambles.

Linda - thanks I may well take you up on that and thank you for getting in touch.

Grrrrrrrrr 

Permalink Reply by Hugh on December 3, 2018 at 12:06

I've always rather liked the Crouch End parking restrictions. If a system id designed to stop all day parking stays, then the system works admirably. But, I have to admit, I'd never thought about the consequences for visitor parking costs.

Permalink Reply by Juliawoo on December 3, 2018 at 12:11

I like it as well.  Just a bit of parity would be nice.  

Permalink Reply by Hugh on December 3, 2018 at 12:13

It does seem unfair that there's such an imbalance in the weight of visitor parking costs in two different areas of the same borough.

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