Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
The original Ally Pally
There is an image on the Alexandra Palace website of the original 1873 building taken of the main front aspect - link/image below. I cannot work out what or where the foreground buildings are. Logically they must be somewhere towards the eastern end of Hornsey High Street if we are looking face on to the palace building but in that area we should be able to see St Mary's Church. Can anyone shed any light on what these buildings are?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ken Stevens on
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Link to house details on Rightmove
Described as former stable. Units don't align neatly to the Linzee back gardens.
Sorry to give you another goose chase, wild or otherwise ---- No, not really :-)
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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Sadly, I don't think it predates the houses. Here is the 93/95 OS overlaid with Google Satellite. You can see both River Cottages and the short terrace of buildings you're highlighting. Nice thought though!
Not convinced about their having been stables for the houses. None of the houses backing on to them were grand enough to have housed carriage owners.
Kelly's tells us they were called Priory Stables. (no idea why they use North Side/South side, rather than east/west!). Perhaps where local traders kept their horses?
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Oh, and I was so looking forward to a new thread on this!
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Permalink Reply by Agabus on
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Have you tried the side-by-side tool on the National Library of Scotland maps website? It lets you palce the cursor over a current satelite image and see where that is on a series of old maps. On the 1890s maps these buildings don't seem to line up with the old cottages.
The map tool is here: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18&lat=51.58...
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Thank you. A new (to me) toy to play with!
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And there's the overlay option, as above. This makes it very easy to relate old maps to the current situation.
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There were a few backlands on the Warner Estate that were disposed of in a variety of ways in the second half of the twentieth century.
The backlands between Priory Avenue and Linzee Road were acquired by all the residents and a shared space was made. Those between Priory Avenue and Park Avenue North were subject to what one Priory Avenue resident described to me as a 'land grab'. Some houses ended up with huge gardens as a result.
I don't know what happened with the stables between Nightingale and Linzee. As the Kelly's clip I posted suggests, it was almost certainly originally owned and run as a single business. If ownership is now split between four (or possibly six) houses, then it is likely that some sort of land acquisition happened at the same time as the other backlands were acquired.
The map below is from the 1952 OS (click it enlarge). The set-up it shows for the stable/s is identical to that shown in the 1915 map. It always had its entrance on Nightingale Lane.
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Gerry, there were three storeyed houses with bays on the St Mary’s Estate. In an earlier comment I added a link to photos on HOL of that estate. As far as I’m aware, those are the only published images of those streets.
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Permalink Reply by Richard Woods on
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I am struggling with that being anything but a full face view. I used Google Earth and got this side view:
The roads look very much like the foot of Muswell Hill but even without all the modern buildings there is no way you get this view.
One possibility: Is it a commercial montage?
The best head on view I could get today was from Campsbourne Road (not great given the intrusions!) but I noted that the water works has had a lot of new building - could that be the angle?
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Anyone fancy a fresh discussion about the house in this image?
Conventional wisdom says that it is an early incarnation of the Priory. Could it actually be Campsbourne viewed from the slopes where Ally Pally now sits? The land under Campsbourne looks to have been owned by the Warners according to the Enclosure Map and the house in the painting is said to have belonged to Warner - the assumption being that it had to be the Priory. But the positon is wrong (even allowing for artisitc licence) for the Priory and the mansion looks to be the eastern-most large house on Hornsey High Street before reaching old St Mary's Church. The painting has to be pre-1832 as the church tower is still squat so the while Campsbourne is a different shape in the 1860s OS map, it could have been a different shape in the late 18th or early 19th century?
Thoughts? Happy to be shot down.
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The painting/engraving was done in 1816 by engraver and watercolourist, John Hassell as an illustration for a book published in 1817. Apparently the majority of the pictures in the second edition were by Daniel Havell after Hassell. (I do not know at this stage if the version on the HHS cover is a Hassell or a Havell after Hassell).
Either way, the work is entitled 'Seat of J Warner Hornsey'. The title doesn't specify which house is portrayed. Its attribution by the HHS as being The Priory is sensible, but we shouldn't automatically assume that it's correct.
Wholesale City grocer, Jacob Warner bought the estate on which The Priory was eventually built at the very end of the eighteenth century. It is thought that he built a three-storey red-brick house there.
Whilst he also owned Campsbourne (Lodge), I'd always understood that the house further west was his main home. With their great wealth, the family replaced the red-brick house with the much better known gothic confection, called The Priory in the early 1820s.
I've looked at the Hassell picture before and thought, like Agabus, that it seems strangely close to the church. Until he/she just suggested that the house pictured could be Campsboure and not Warner's red-brick house, I'd never considered it. It might be. However, if it's correct that the red-brick house was Warner's main residence then the picture's description as the seat of J Warner, makes me lean more towards it being the red-brick house.
The Land Tax records are difficult to interpret since they only show owners and occupiers. Warner's there, but I can't get any clues about which house is referred to for the record where he is given as both owner and occupier. What we can say is that by far the largest property he was assessed on was the one that he also occupied. I think that is more likley to have been "The Priory" estate rather than Campsbourne.
Even if the tax records showed house names, that might not help since, apparently, before its 1820's rebuild, what then became "The Priory" was only previously known as “the villa of Jacob Warner” (a fact which incidentally also adds another point in the column that the house in the painting is NOT Campsbourne. It's also why I've been using the term red-brick house above).
The HHS book was edited by Joan Schwitzer and includes chapters by Peter Barber, Malcom Stokes, Alan Aris and Albert Pinching. You'd think that if all that Hornsey History eminence was happy the the "Priory" attribution, it's more likely to be correct than not.
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