Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!

Thameslink Franchise Consultation - Have your say on this

This is worth having a look at and having you say. It will affect the two stations that serve Harringay Ward, Harringay and Hornsey. Do let me have your thoughts either here or at karen.alexander.haringeylibdems@gmail.com

Thameslink Franchise

Introduction

The Department for Transport is consulting on a new franchise covering the existing First Capital Connect Thameslink and Great Northern franchises and the franchise for Southern and some services from the South East franchise. The closing date for the consultation is 23 August. The new franchise [the biggest that has ever been let] would form the basis for the full new Thameslink services expecting to be delivered in 2018.

TfL analysis shows the GN route south of Bowes Park will be standing room only in morning peak services in 2021.

Consultation document attached below. taken from the DoT website.

Proposed Franchise

The franchise is to last for 7 years with a possible 2 year extension. Five bidders have been shortlisted by DfT [Abellio Thameslink, First Thameslink (current franchise holder), Govia Thameslink, MTR Corporation Thameslink and Stagecoach Thameslink]. MTR and First have approached the Council seeking our comments. DfT is expecting to issue the Invitation to Tender [ITT] to shortlisted applicants in October 2012 with the winning bid announced in May 2013 for commencement in September 2013. Southern services would become part of the franchise in July 2015 with South East services by December 2018.

The franchise includes Great Northern services which serve Bowes Park, Alexandra Palace, Hornsey, Harringay and Finsbury Park stations in Haringey. The GN serves such destinations as Peterborough, Cambridge, Kings Lynn, Stevenage, Welwyn Garden City and Hertford into and out of Kings Cross and Moorgate. Some of the longer distance GN services such as to Cambridge and Peterborough which currently terminate at Kings Cross would transfer to the new Thameslink line through Farringdon and Blackfriars. The DfT raise the possibility of some of the longer distance GN services not serving the Thameslink core route between Kings Cross and Blackfriars could transfer to the new Intercity East Coast franchise but these longer distance services such as to Peterborough and Stevenage would not serve Haringey stations with the exception of Finsbury Park.

Current Services

Current service frequencies for Bowes Park, Alexandra Palace, Hornsey and Harringay are as follows:

Monday to Friday

Moorgate/Hornsey/Harringay/Alexandra Palace – 6 trains per hour peak and off peak
Moorgate/Bowes Park – 3 trains per hour peak and off-peak

Saturday and Sunday

Kings Cross/Hornsey/Harringay/Alexandra Palace – 4 trains per hour
Kings Cross/Bowes Park – 2 trains per hour

Services to Finsbury Park are very high frequency.

Issues to consider for Consultation Response

Should the Council be seeking enhanced service frequencies for the GN route?
What are the priorities for improving customer experience?
What station improvements should be sought eg ticket offices, gating?
Is there a need for better cycle parking at Haringey stations?
Does the current rolling stock meet the needs of passengers? Is there a need for new rolling stock?
Is there scope for innovative fares or ticketing arrangements?
Any other comments?

Tags for Forum Posts: first capital connect, great northern line, public transport, trains

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Attachments:

consultation-thameslink.pdf, 930 KB

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Arkady on July 25, 2012 at 11:38

I suggest we meet at Moka on Monday at six, or outside it if it’s closed. If people want to send me an email (redarkady@hotmail.com) with their phone numbers that might help.

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Permalink Reply by Hugh on July 25, 2012 at 11:57

I can ask K if if fancies staying open a bit longer, if you like.

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Permalink Reply by Karen Alexander on July 25, 2012 at 12:28

Great - that sounds like a plan.

Permalink Reply by Arkady on July 25, 2012 at 12:54

Just had a conversation with the Hornsey Journal, turns out this will be a front page story tomorrow.

They gave me three interesting pieces of information re what the DfT have (reluctantly) come back to them with:

a) Services to H&H won’t be cut

b) They will achieve this by stopping those four Thameslink trains an hour – but no word on SDO/platform extensions

c) The Hertford Loop trains will run semi-fast from Ally Pally to Finsbury Park, i.e. no new platforms.

I believe this is the first time that DfT have been drawn on this.

So any campaign should be centred on demanding platform extensions on the Welwyn tracks, and demanding new platforms so Hertford Loop trains can also stop.

Ben

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Permalink Reply by Ellie on July 25, 2012 at 14:29

H&H services really need not to be cut! Between 7.45 and 8.45 am every single train is packed out. We need newer trains with less wasted space (the anarchist in me always looks at the driver doors at the end of each carriage and wants to yank open the door and get on after I've not been able to get on the 2 previous and horribly delayed trains.) Also some climate control would be great so that I'm not sweating on, or being sweated on by, the 6 other people I'm squashed up against simultaneously.

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Permalink Reply by Arkady on July 25, 2012 at 14:59

Based on the new confirmation above, Hornsey & Harringay are due to receive 4 fancy Siemens Desiros per hour, and two of the current 313s. I don’t know how the Desiros will be configured internally; it probably makes sense for them to be configured like London Overground trains in the core to maximise capacity, but that would reduce the number of seats so annoy people at the far ends of the line. And no-one is talking about when the 313s will be replaced. They are the oldest stock in London, but only certain train types can be adapted to enter the Northern City Line to Moorgate (after Drayton Park).

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Permalink Reply by Glenn Wallis on July 25, 2012 at 16:06

I don't want to cause undue alarm but the new Thameslink stock (whenever the DfT get around to actually ordering it) won't fit the platforms "down the hole" to Moorgate!

According to RAIL 700 Siemens plan use the Thameslink order to launch the "revolutionary" new high-density Desiro City electric multiple unit.....

Some 1,140 dual-system 750V DC/25kV AC vehicles will be built, informations of either eight or 12-cars........

The Great Northern & City stations between Drayton Park and Moorgate can only accommodate 6-cars. Does this mean that the GN&C will be left with 2x2 1976 vintage Class 313s per hour?

Regards

Glenn, standing in for my learned friend Richard P who is away at a meeting.

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Permalink Reply by Arkady on July 25, 2012 at 16:19

No alarm needed on that front.

The Hertford Loop will continue with 313s until they are replaced by some stock other than the Desiro at some indefinite future date.

From 2018 the GN&C will have two 313s per hour from Welwyn-Moorgate, and a further 6-10 313s per hour on Hertford Loop-Moorgate. That will max out Moorgate’s capacity. Up to double what it gets now.

Provisional details here, if you are interested: http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/rvfm-jacobs-franchising-...

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Permalink Reply by Glenn Wallis on July 25, 2012 at 17:02

That's OK then. Richard P is the GN specialist. I specialise in the Tottenham & Hampstead. Actually BGOLUG does have a plan to bring back the 19 former Overground Class 313s, now in exile on the South Coast and use 10 on the T&H (Barking - Gospel Oak) and allocate the other 9 to the GN. This would mean that Southern would get additional new trains instead of Overground which might appeal to DafT and Tory Ministers but there would be 10 recently refurbished Class 313s to run an electrified T&H for 5 years or so.

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Permalink Reply by Arkady on July 26, 2012 at 9:06

http://www.hornseyjournal.co.uk/news/fears_haringey_train_services_...

Misquotes me slightly, and doesn't really et to grips with the issue. But it should raise awareness...

Ben

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Permalink Reply by 0au62mcjc4khe on July 29, 2012 at 1:30

On Friday, I did a quick look around all the stations between Alexandra Palace, work in progress being fenced off, to Drayton Park, a saga in itself where Islington failed to extract an upgrade from Arsenal FC. Finsbury Park work in progress to restore the old east side platform; this was closed off from 1976 when the Broad St trains finished as the Moorgate electrics started. Hornsey and Harringay (West) no changes observed, no sign of any building work.

Haringey's Officer still does not know what NR plan to do at these stations, but we must push for a major upgrade and four platform faces to replace the minimalist facilities dating back to 1975. DDA requirements by 2020 means a re-think anyway.

The local papers never quite get the nuances quite right, but it isn't as bad as some articles which appear in local rags; it is front page and the message needs to be followed up by letters to the paper.

My concern is the lack of any clear policy or strategy from Haringey council on Thameslink and station improvement works. Clearly this must be quickly redressed.

Meanwhile contact this Blog with your concerns if you use either station.

RicP