Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Parking Permits - Can Haringey make life more difficult?
What a lovely council we live in. Run so well, and with such incisive decision making.
Again, Haringey have either failed to send out a parking permit renewal form entirely, or just too late to get it back to them with only ten days left on my existing one, despite me chasing them for this three times over the past three weeks.
Year upon year this happens.
Several years back, two tickets and a clamp were my only “reminder” so I’m rather cautious about letting my permit lapse – every year following this I’ve been down to the “parking shop” or whatever it’s called, right by the Civic Centre in Wood Green.
So today I drove down, V5, Council Tax bill and cash in hand, only to find that the swine are now not open on a Saturday. Since when?!
With less than 10 days to go on the permit now that I have received the “reminder” form this means I really don’t have much option but to take a day off work, or to phone Haringey and give them such a balling that they agree to help. I will opt for the latter option first thing on Monday, but who the hell do these people think they are?
If I didn’t have a job, I probably wouldn’t have a car. If I could renew online, I would, and there wouldn’t be a problem. Indeed this would give a cost saving, because they could then close the parking shop almost entirely even in the week – who actually wants to go there anyway? It’s not like the staff there have ever been very helpful or even courteous even when you are only there to buy parking permits.
If I could renew in person on a Saturday like I could last year, then I’d be OK too, but I cannot do that either, so I’m pretty cross.
Who makes these stupid decisions; why close the parking shop for business on a Saturday without making any alternate provision for the apparent few that have jobs? Come on Haringey, are you complete idiots, or is this a plan to extract yet more money; force our permits to expire so that you can ticket, clamp and tow our vehicles?
I note that the vehicle pound IS open for business today, and that the wardens ARE on patrol. So, Haringey can facilitate the enforcement of lapsed permits, but cannot facilitate the renewal of permits on a weekend. Of course, it’s all stacked in favour of them making another quick buck from us.
If it's too expensive to adminster the scheme without causing this much inconvenience, I wish they'd just scrap it entirely - I can't see that parking permits help do much more than make money for Haringey anyway - certainly I see no advantage to them as a resident.
Not happy, and am going to start phoning people to moan loudly on Monday morning. They’d better come up with a better solution than me taking a day off work – it’s quite easy to calculate the cost of this and I’ll be only too happy to send a bill in for my lost earnings!
Again, Haringey have either failed to send out a parking permit renewal form entirely, or just too late to get it back to them with only ten days left on my existing one, despite me chasing them for this three times over the past three weeks.
Year upon year this happens.
Several years back, two tickets and a clamp were my only “reminder” so I’m rather cautious about letting my permit lapse – every year following this I’ve been down to the “parking shop” or whatever it’s called, right by the Civic Centre in Wood Green.
So today I drove down, V5, Council Tax bill and cash in hand, only to find that the swine are now not open on a Saturday. Since when?!
With less than 10 days to go on the permit now that I have received the “reminder” form this means I really don’t have much option but to take a day off work, or to phone Haringey and give them such a balling that they agree to help. I will opt for the latter option first thing on Monday, but who the hell do these people think they are?
If I didn’t have a job, I probably wouldn’t have a car. If I could renew online, I would, and there wouldn’t be a problem. Indeed this would give a cost saving, because they could then close the parking shop almost entirely even in the week – who actually wants to go there anyway? It’s not like the staff there have ever been very helpful or even courteous even when you are only there to buy parking permits.
If I could renew in person on a Saturday like I could last year, then I’d be OK too, but I cannot do that either, so I’m pretty cross.
Who makes these stupid decisions; why close the parking shop for business on a Saturday without making any alternate provision for the apparent few that have jobs? Come on Haringey, are you complete idiots, or is this a plan to extract yet more money; force our permits to expire so that you can ticket, clamp and tow our vehicles?
I note that the vehicle pound IS open for business today, and that the wardens ARE on patrol. So, Haringey can facilitate the enforcement of lapsed permits, but cannot facilitate the renewal of permits on a weekend. Of course, it’s all stacked in favour of them making another quick buck from us.
If it's too expensive to adminster the scheme without causing this much inconvenience, I wish they'd just scrap it entirely - I can't see that parking permits help do much more than make money for Haringey anyway - certainly I see no advantage to them as a resident.
Not happy, and am going to start phoning people to moan loudly on Monday morning. They’d better come up with a better solution than me taking a day off work – it’s quite easy to calculate the cost of this and I’ll be only too happy to send a bill in for my lost earnings!
Tags for Forum Posts: parking permits
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by matt on
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Alan, that's good news re permit renewal online proposed. So we'll expect this in a few years time when the techies work it all out. At least it's self funded via the increased permit charges.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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Many thanks. John. It's interesting that at present, Barnet give free permits for 3 of their Housing Estates; and they include this information on the general form.
There are separate parking arrangements for residents on Homes for Haringey Estates, many Housing Association (RSL) Estates and of course, privately owned estates and "unadopted" roads. It's yet one more odd omission from the report to Haringey's "cabinet".
Matt, I can't tell you whether or not the online service would be self-funded. Nor when it may be available. Further co-operative detective work is needed
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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Any bets on how many years it will be before TfL take over the job of parking enforcement and CPZs for all of London?
What's interesting for me Alan is that this information was so hard to find. You certainly couldn't "compare the meerkats" for London's CPZ charging.
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Permalink Reply by Joe Bailey on
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I actually managed to get my permit renewed in time, with all the strongly worded complaints I made, and a request to meet with Ms Cunningham so that she could inform me why this had to be such a pain to do!
Anyway, I was assured that an online renewal system is very close, and should be with us by the start of 2011 if not before the end of 2010. I was also told that we could renew online for three years before having to re-send proof of ownership / residence. Current thinking is that it's postal or in person on the "proove you are who you say you are years", but I suggested an online upload facility; if the council will accept photocopies, they should accept scanned PDFs / JPGs / TIFs etc. too. this idea was apparently taken on board as was my offer to help in any user acceptance testing.
The gentleman who gave me this news was Gary Weston who heads up the payment team, or something like that... He also apologised and said that HC had hoped to release this system before the reduced hours for the payment office, and were aware how much of a pain things currently were for residents wanting to renew... Which was nice!
Alan, does that name help you get anything more concrete?
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That's already pretty concrete and detailed, Joe!
I'm pleased to hear that plans for online renewals are quite advanced. Especially as only last week I heard two complaints from people who'd waited 30 and 50 minutes at the Parking Shop. They told me that while the staff were helpful and courteous, there weren't enough of them.
Also that the forms were barely legible - they seemed to be photocopies of photocopies. And that there wasn't enough table space.
On the other hand, we do need effective checks on someone's entitlement - and this can take time.
I'm still awaiting answers to the three emails I sent on 11 November.
My meter is running; but it's within the ten-working-days timescale for answering a councillor's enquiry.
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28 November: still waiting for replies to my three enquiries. No explanation why there's a delay.
Two requests were for copies of existing documents: a briefing paper given to two other councillors; and The Parking Charges Review 2010 - referred to in the Cabinet Report. So a fortnight not to receive papers which already existed.
My third enquiry was about the risk of a fall in the Parking Account surplus which could justify a charges increase. Thanks to Adrian,
HoL members know that one of my two questions was already answered. Haringey Annual Parking & Enforcement Report April 2009 - March 2010 showed a rise in the Parking Account surplus to £3,096,000.
So I await information on my other question: has there been a steep fall since last March which indicates a potential loss? Officers must've known the answer in order to write the financial comments in the report to the Cabinet.
I sent a further enquiry which I also posted. This is due an answer by 3 December.
(Tottenham Hale ward councillor)
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I actually argued with Haringey on this and won. My car has an LPG conversion which brings it up to Energy Savings Trust Band 4 - very clean in other words. Got a shed load of cash 7 years ago to convert funded by the gonvernment via Powershift, and TfL accept this as me being green enough to drive into the congestion zone without having to pay (well, £10 per year to update my exemption registration, but that's cheaper thatn £8 per day!). Would you Adam and Eve it, a GTi with green credentials, life can be beautiful when we try!
Haringey don't offer this info, but when the banding for permit charges / emissions came in, I received written assurances that they would allow alternate fuel vehicles in at the lowest band, even if they were pre March 2001 and had the older taxation system as my car does.
Indeed the new CC London people tried to argue with me on this after 7 or so years of registering for discounts with the same paperwork, and a top bod at TfL stepped in and told them that they should accept my dicsount registration for as long as my vehicle is on the road (given how green it is, and how much el-government paid to have me convert it). They even went as far as to register it without the charge this year :-)
Even though I don't have an official CO2 rating (car too old), Haringey do allow me to register this at £15 per annum, although on each occasion I have to send a cover letter and proof of conversion. Even more fortunately the gas car is our second vehicle, and the diseasel therefor doesn't cost more than about £50 a year rather than the £90 it would cost if it were our second vehicle, quite why there is a distinction between first and second vehicles beats me, what happens when I want a third?!
Maybe Haringey do see sense on occasion, or maybe they just give in to my endless "persuading" when I feel that they are in the wrong. Who can say!
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News to me - where did you hear this? I heard tell of this several years ago but TfL deny such scaremongring every time I've checked with them on this. The TfL Complaints Manager I spoke with in January also had no incling that this was on the cards.
Anyway, I've been looking for an excuse to upgrade to an R32 and have held off getting a new car as the savings are so great with the exemption. But if they phase out the exemption for us LPG drivers, I'll just go get myself that 3.2 litre golf that I've dreamed of... May as well get the best value for my £8 per day... If you're going to pollute, you may as well do it properly ;-)
Who says money can't buy happiness!
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Absolutely Joe, maybe purchase a Hummer. After all the difference charged for a top grade CO2 emitter is little compared the medium sized car most people have.
Actually, could drive the Hummer along the New River or River Lea and avoid congestion and parking charges in central London;
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I’ve now had a reply to all four of my outstanding councillor’s enquiries about the Parking Charges price-hike. I’ve posted it below.
As you’ll see, the person drafting the reply has thoughtfully tried to summarise the information I asked for. But they haven’t realised that sometimes the reason I ask for information is because I want to know things. So I shall be writing back assuring them that I do want the full details of the Parking Charges Review and the comparative data they collected on other boroughs’ charges. Plus the monthly figures for PCN income since April this year ─ which supposedly justifies the increases.
I’ll be making other points, too. So if any HoL members would like to add some constructive comments and questions I’m happy to include them.
One aspect which gets curiouser and curiouser is Haringey’s brand-new definition of an “average” charge. This turns out to mean the charge for an “average car”. (Whatever that is.) I realise this does not fit any of the usual mathematical or statistical definitions of “average”. But, to be fair, there is a link with quite a famous mathematician - Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, author of “Symbolic Logic” and “Euclid, Book V Proved Algebraically.”"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."
(Through the Looking Glass).
----- Original Message -----
From : Haringey Urban Environment Department
To : Cllr Alan Stanton
Sent : Monday, November 29, 2010 12:39 PM
Subject : Parking Charges Report
Dear Cllr Stanton
Thank you for your emails received on 11 and 19 November 2010 relating to the Parking Charges Report.
It may be helpful to refer you to the annual parking and enforcement report which is now available on the Council’s website. This report gives a range of information about the financial performance of the parking service. The report can be found using the following link.
You will see from this report that PCN issue has declined over recent years, but we have managed to more or less maintain our PCN income. This has been achieved through the improved efficiency of the parking recovery process. However we are mindful that as our PCN issue continues to decline (which is the trend across London) we will see a decline in income from this source. As such it would not be prudent to continue to reply on PCN income to subsidise other parking service areas. It is also reasonable in those circumstances to ensure that paid for services (such as parking permits) cover the cost of delivering that service, and that charges are comparable with those applied by other boroughs. This year the parking service will deliver further cost reductions with a predicted outturn of expenditure of £9.3m, against income levels of £12.6m. The parking surplus supports highways maintenance and concessionary travel.
When reviewing our charges we carried out a thorough review which considered information from a range of sources. We also considered current pressures on the parking account. We relied on the charge that applies to the average car as a comparator. Boroughs use different charging models and many were in the process of reviewing their charges. This seemed to be the most reliable option. Much of the background information relied on has not been retained as options and level of charging were discussed in detail with the Cabinet member and subsequently considered by other Cabinet Members prior to being taken forward for formal approval.
Health care professionals may apply for Essential Service Permits and no changes are proposed to those charges at present. A separate piece of work is underway in relation to those permits.
The estimated additional income is detailed below
Increased parking charges – assumptions
*Doctors permits are administered by legal services and do not form part of the parking account.
I hope that this is helpful.
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1. Labour voters in CPZs will pay more than half a million pounds that non-labour voters will not (and probably even more given the number of PCNs issued for contravening CPZs).
2. The council are seeing a reduction in PCN income and therefore HAVE TO increase the permit income.
3. The council do use parking income to pay for the Freedom pass for Haringey residents over 60 (The parking surplus supports highways maintenance and concessionary travel).
4. I have an FOI request in to ask about the £9 million of expenditure for last year due back in the next few days, I bet it just says "£9 million - OnTime Parking". Meh.
The only problem I have with this is that the CPZ "tax" is still not universally applicable or even where it is applicable, universally enforced.
Long may this prudent management of Haringey Parking's finances continue.
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John, let me take your numbered points in order.
1. Residents who live in CPZ areas voted for all parties. And for none at all: the percentage not voting in May ranged from around 25% - 50%. If you meant that more poorer areas have CPZs and these areas will be more affected by the charges hike, that is broadly true. Which is why there should have been an Equalities Impact Assessment (EIA) before the cabinet report and decision; and not a sketchy paragraph added on, with a recommendation that an EIA "be carried out".
2. The Council are not seeing a reduction in PCN income. Please see my post above: ". . . we have managed to more or less maintain our PCN income." This is net income because the Parking Service has reduced its costs. Also, as Clive Carter and GreenN8 have pointed out, figures for the overall Parking Account Surplus over the last three years don't suggest the risk of a steep fall. Last year's surplus was over £3 million.
3. You may be right about the Freedom Pass. I don't know details of what the Parking Account surplus is spent on. Okay, as a councillor perhaps I ought to know. But actually, we all ought to. If the answers to your Freedom of Information questions don't include this information. I will request and publish it.
4. I realise, John, you and other residents are pissed-off about OnTime and other trucks using the Ladder roads as a cut-through. But Harringay Online members who don't follow that particular thread could be mystified by your jokey reference. The Council has not outsourced the Parking Service.
Lots of people, apparently including you, think it's sensible to increase parking charges as an alternative to cutting or shutting vital services. That's entirely understandable. But first there are two unavoidable questions to be answered. (a) Is it equitable? (b) Is it legal?
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