Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Notes from Meeting on Sainsbury's Development in Hornsey
Below are notes taken by local resident Jason Beazley and reproduced with his kind permission. Has has asked me to make it clear they they represent his personal views.
Here are my notes from last night's Hornsey Depot consultation.
Rather than go over it all I advise you to read my previous notes sent to you on this.
What follows is a clarification and update. They offered further information than my last set of notes sent to you. They are:
- That the site was 28% owned by Sainsbury’s and 72% owned by Haringey and St James were the developers.
- That major decisions would be made by Haringey like: Traffic flow, parking, and numbers of units and to only provide 40% of the car parking requirements for the residential units. The proportions of the mixed use etc.
- The frontage of the whole development on the high street would be where the old Baths frontage is now. This would be demolished and a 3 lane exit road and the frontage for the Sainsbury’s Café would replace it. The café would be 3.5 1000 sq ft.
After a presentation from the commissioned Architects, we were asked to work in small groups to discuss 3 main questions.
- Vitality of the High Street and local community- what can Sainsbury’s do to integrate the development into the High Street and community?
- Traffic and Parking- they want an understanding of traffic generally so they can respond to it.
- Permeability and pedestrian access- providing open, easy safe access for pedestrians what’s our requirements?
This was followed by a quick feedback session. Most of the people were residents (and I think only I was from the trade association.)
Some of the points discussed at the end of the workshop were.
- Lack of infrastructure to go with the extra housing We discussed the impact of extra housing on health / education services etc. (re New River debacle: Items such as the river walk planting, the infrastructure promises,doctors, schools etc.): grants to the local community groups. As well as promises of good social housing with good planting in and around the community housing,L which did not occur last time) and more trees and open space for the public and not just the private residents.
- The effect on existing businesses- including what will be in the new store with Sainsbury’s confirmed: a café and a bakery. We suggested that some other commercial outlet (currently not trading in the high street) should be the face of Sainsbury’s on the High St.
- We all agreed that the scheme should try and retain the existing Baths facia on the High Street- if not then some of it and what is replacing it should fit in with the traditional shop fronts
- Opening hours & delivery arrangements- Confirmed as 8 to 11 every day except Sunday 10-4pm
- Environmental improvements in and around the main approach road and car park
- To make pedestrian access from and to the High Street safe, easy, attractive and tree lined.
- Signage including community/public notice boards, to keep these in line with the historical signage of Hornsey High Street as much as possible.
- That the development should increase the convenience of and the footfall on the High Street.
- Make parking available to users of the High Street even if not using the supermarket. Sainsbury’s confirmed that they envisage 90mins free parking
- That St James/ Sainsbury’s should consider giving grants for community events, including special festivals, like carnival, Christmas lights/tree and plants/hanging baskets.
- Traffic generated and or Parking
- The suggested height of the private residential units.
Traffic generated and or Parking:
Here many agreed that the council should provide more parking as the whole issue of parking since the introduction of the South Hornsey High St CPZ(SHHSCPZ) had made most of the roads north of the High Street a nightmare to park. I lived the furthest away in Linzee and I agreed with this.
We pointed out the Traffic hotspots on the HS and discussed the possible opening of Cross Lane. We suggested that the whole issue of traffic flow and parking North of the HS needs more thought as what they do on their adjacent roads affects all those roads off Nightingale Lane and should be considered as a whole avoiding setting up rat runs and dangerous out points on to the HS.
Amongst their suggestions were that the 60% of residential units (possibly 240 cars without parking spaces, can be made into on street CPZ parking around the area north of the HS. The people that live on roads currently affected by the SHHS CPZ were split 50/50 on the expansion of the CPZ north of the HS.
The suggested height of the private residential units:
After a long discussion we agreed that 10 stories was too high for the position of this development in HHS.
Tags for Forum Posts: Sainsbury's, hornsey depot-sainsbury's
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by matt on
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10 stories! Blimey. Yes, keeping the facia sounds like a reasonable idea, but that would involve creative thinking which corporates rarely do.
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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More notes from the meeting. These from Lesley Ramm:
Attended exhibition and workshop 10/6/13
- Advised consultants running the show that having just 2 workshop consultation sessions at 6.30 on 2 consecutive evenings, and no more, is insufficient to really consult a wide spectrum of residents, businesses etc
- Rules out e.g. workers, those with young children and no childcare, elderly.
- What about daytime, later evening, weekend sessions?
St James Homes from website:
Design and environment working together. St James began life in 1996 as a joint venture between the Berkeley Group and Thames Water. Many of its first developments were on brownfield land where water was, or had been, a feature: for example at The Hamptons in Worcester Park or New River Village in Hornsey, north London. Since then St James has established a reputation as a design conscious developer who continues to regenerate redundant sites as attractive developments whose design has a positive impact on the environment. Not all involve water; and many include the refurbishment of important historic buildings, such as Queen Mary's Place in Roehampton or Kingsway Square in Battersea. As well as private developments of homes and apartments, projects also embrace commercial property, recreational and community facilities, with creative solutions that deliver every aspect of sustainable mixed use development and respond to the needs of today's
homebuyers and communities.
In attendance:- Reps from consultants running consultation on behalf of Sainsbury and St James
- Cllr Dave Winskill Crouch End
- Jennifer Bell HHS / local activist
- Jason Beazley HornseyN8 Yahoo group and Hornsey Trades rep
- Fran Shepherd local, HornseyN8 Yahoo group and FoPP rep
- Lisa Hyde 2 The Gardens N8
- Dennis Bradley HornseyN8 Yahoo group, former town planner, Amnesty
- International, Hornsey CAAC
- Many others
Not in attendanceHornsey Ward Cllrs Gorrie, Whyte (attending exhibition Saturday), Reid (attended Tuesday workshop)
Presentation
30 minute delay in starting.Presentation caused many questions
Stated Pembroke House development is only residential - I advised planning application states start up businesses fronting Campsbourne Rd on ground floor is integral to development
Land is jointly owned 28% Sainsbury / 72% Council (who had no official representation at workshop)
Development includes
- large café on corner opposite Turkish Community Centre fronting High St
- in store bakery
Sainsbury refuse to have social housing on top of store due to "management" issues (accused by some of creating ghettos and operating a form of apartheid)
New work/life units (businesses I assume) on west side of Cross Lane
Opening hours may be 8am-11pm M-Sat and 10-4 Sunday
Possibility of 90 minutes free parking for shoppers AND locals not using store
Drainage - into New River and Moselle
Moselle in such poor state / quality of water, it cannot be above ground (same said for Heartlands development by council)
Residents would be unable to apply for CPZ permits when a North Hornsey CPZ is bought in which they seemed to think was a done deal
42% residences will be affordable/social housing (similar to NRV original promise which ended up much reduced)
Social housing in separate block on Miles Rd
One block will be 10 storeys high in direct line of site along Newland Road as far as Linzee Road
Groups then discussed and presented views
Issues raised by locals in attendance
Impacts on traffic- along High Street
- along Campsbourne Rd
- along Pembroke Rd
- Along Miles Rd
- through NRV to new private residential development
In accessing the development directly from High St entrance (cars and delivery lorries, as well as construction lorries)
- In accessing the social housing block in Miles Rd
- Fears of gridlock on High St and Campsbourne Rd
- Do NRV residents know that all traffic to new estate will use New River
- Village roads to access?
- Especially bad when events at Ally Pally which increases traffic along High St
- Suggestion to install spur from railway to run construction materials to site thus reducing traffic for the duration
Noise
- From delivery and construction traffic at all hours on local streets including NRV
- From deliveries to the new residents especially during night
Other nearby developments- Pembroke House
- Cleopatra House
- Both along Pembroke Rd
- Neither with anywhere near sufficient on site parking for number of units/residents
- Building going on with construction traffic along same roads (High St and Campsbourne Rd)
- Could have building on 3 sites at same time
Impacts on parking- along High Street
- along Campsbourne Rd
- along Pembroke Rd
- Along Miles Rd
- Inadequate onsite residents parking or too expensive to use leading to
- Overspill similar to that experience from NRV onto Moselle estate
Impact of large increase in residents with insufficient- infrastructure/facilities
- Such as GPs
- school places
Loss of local Recycling Facility- only alternative is in Tottenham
- residents use facility well because it is local
- fears of dumping on local streets as happened before recycling yard was opened
Demolition of Bathhouse frontage- Very strong feeling by local residents to retain this historic 1932 building frontage with Hornsey Borough Plaque
- Developers stated it is not listed by English Heritage or even the local council
- Developers stated it cannot be incorporated into new development i.e. left in situ due to large café on corner
- Appears it will go ahead whatever local desire
S106 funding- As the money given by St James to council for the benefit of residents on Campsbourne estate due to NRV development has yet to be spent by council no
- anticipation by locals that they will benefit from such money for this development
- St James rep said they can ask for S106 refund if unspent
Impact on High Street shops- questions as to why Sainsbury felt need to locate their (probably Starbucks) café in prominent site fronting High St on opposite corner to
- Turkish Community Centre (our old Parish Hall). Many felt it cynical and a craven attempt to steal business directly from currently struggling small, independent businesses such as Bloomers, Olive etc. Why not locate within store or NOT facing High St or further along frontage towards GNRT away from
- other cafés?
- In store Bakery will directly challenge our only remaining independent baker, Starcrust, since La Brioche (was Melissa) folded last week
- how long before an in store pharmacy kills off Frosts (which has been in business since the 1920s
- direct threat to Hesters newsagent (which has traded since at least 1917)
- will an in store post office follow? (we have had one since at least 1917)
- I really fear for the future of my High Street. Having seen it close to extinction in the 70s/80s with high rents and rates, lack of investment and an uninterested council it is nice to have a (relatively) thriving local high street to shop on. But with the ever reducing parking availability thanks to a council that is just interested in grabbing money and Sainsbury's on our doorstep I do not see how many shops will survive.
Local resident for 60 years
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Permalink Reply by sally mustoe on
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I did not know about the meeting and would certainly have attended. When this project was first mooted, a committee of local residents, many of whom had never previously been involved in public comment, was supported by old campaigning environmentalists including some from Friends of the Earth and the Tree Trust for Haringey worried about the destruction of a stand of trees near the entrance. Your notes indicate that this was 15 years ago so I must have been 69 when I joined others climbing the trees to protest against their totally unnecessary felling .(I think this was one of the many occasions when that idiotic excuse -"we're planting other trees there" totally ignoring how long it takes to establish trees.) I'd be grateful to learn where I can see the latest plans and if there is going to be another meeting Sally M
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Permalink Reply by Lesley Ramm on
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Saturday is last chance to see developers "plans". At St Mary's school, Rectory Rd. not sure of times
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thank you SM
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Having attended the consultation on the Hornsey Depot Site earlier today, I have real concerns that Haringey Council appear to be supporting the current proposals which are totally inappropriate for Hornsey High Street .I support the idea of making better use of this under utilised site, creating more permeability across the site and of providing additional housing and workspace. However as it stands these benefits will be totally eclipsed by the detrimental impact that the Sainsbury's supermarket will have on the development of this site, the High Street and the wider area.Some of the key objections are:- The size of the supermarket is totally out of scale with character of Hornsey High Street as a local retail centre.- The existing 1930s bath building which is an integral part of the Hornsey High Street Conservation Area, is to be demolished and replaced by a large traffic junction such as the one constructed as part of the New River Village Development which will break the continuity of the High Street.- The heart of the site will be dominated by a car park which will be an eyesore- A Sainsbury's of this size in the area will put further pressure on independent retailers in Hornsey and Crouch End.- The traffic generated by the supermarket and the additional of a traffic junction on the High Street will bring traffic into the area and cause congestion.This model of supermarket development may be appropriate to business parks or suburban locations, but is not suitable for high street locations such as Hornsey. Apart from anything else there is no need for another Sainsbury's - they already have large stores 1.4 miles away in Muswell Hill in one direction and 1.7miles in Harringay in the other. In addition to this there is a already a Tescos on the high street and a Waitrose, Tescos, Budgens and Marks and Spencers within 1 mile in Crouch End and a large Morrison 1.2miles away in Wood Green.I think there needs to be a well organised campaign against the development in its current form.
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