Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Make our voice heard - sick of Green Lanes charcoal air pollution? - Meeting 22 June
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Permalink Reply by Domshaw
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It would be good to include the business owners on Green Lanes wouldn't it? They are part of the community too and the reason our high street isn't dead like others. There are better fuel and filtering systems available that I'm sure they'd be happy to consider if only someone asked them.
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter
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This is progress, but is this not a "meeting" on the council's terms and controlled by the council?
There are a few advantages of a "Teams" video connection, such as availability.
The risk may be that everyone will feel that it was a good "meeting" … and that's it.
However, one of the effects of the Microsoft barrier erected, is to maintain separation and insulation from residents whom council staff are supposed to serve. A video connection discriminates against those who don't have "Teams", aren't technically literate and even those who may not be on the 'net!
Participants see others on a piece of glass and there is less connection, if not alienation.
After Covid, council Directors had become so comfortable with this form of social distancing and working from home, I understand they had to be encouraged—if not ordered—to come in to work.
Supposedly on (spurious) cost-saving grounds, Labour stopped the Neighbourhood Forums, which were real meetings in real rooms in the community. Senior council officers would come and stand up and explain policies to ordinary residents and even take questions from them.
I wonder if it was senior council employees who disliked this indignity and who were behind the stopping of the Forums?
I hear the Greens may be re-introducing these forums. If this is the case, then it is a good thing. It's democratic and reminds these sometimes out-of-touch council employees, who it is they are supposed to be serving and who in the long run, pay their salaries.
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Permalink Reply by Alice B
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Hi Clive – Actually to give them credit, the council have been quite good in accommodating this meeting. Given the timeslot we have been allocated (6.30pm start), a Teams meeting felt much more inclusive as many people will be coming home from work / doing the kids dinner / doing kids bedtime and juggling attendance. With my little one going to bed at 7pm, an in-person meeting would mean I couldn’t attend. It’s a tough balance, as I’d agree the in-person sentiment would be great – but not if it meant people couldn’t get there. This is the start of a longer engagement campaign so hopefully we can get some in-person sessions in as well!
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This is the start of a longer engagement campaign so hopefully we can get some in-person sessions in as well!
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Hi Alice, yes it's a start, but that's all it can be. Later, real meetings will be needed.
I hope the remote meeting would be a chaired by a formal representative of the community: a Member of the Council. i.e. a Councillor. But as it is council-organised, it may be chaired by an employee (?) aka an "officer".
Everyone should understand that local authorities—which we pay for—are supposed to work for public benefit. Some staff are genuinely helpful and gratitude can be deserved.
But please be wary of any possible "officer" tactics such as dominance, humouring or waffle.
I recommend focus on facts, on data and insistence on particular defined actions on or by dates, schedules or timetables. Council staff may be reluctant to agree to specifics. "Commitments" from their PR Department are two a penny, but getting timing commitments from council operatives is akin to nailing jelly to a wall. If possible, record the meeting.
I've been around long enough to see residents hoping, trusting and believing in Haringey Council's good faith and good intentions … only to be steamrollered.
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I believe Cllr Gio Iozzi the Cabinet Member for Climate Action will be running this - alongside our Director of Public Health.
Please come along Clive! I'd appreciate your experience and reflections afterwards :-)
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Alice, I'm pleased to hear that. I'm more tempted to listen in.
The Greens had some of my voting support recently and I'm hoping that—with their having more of an environmental focus—there could be real, meaningful progress and not yet more PR, promises and blandishments.
Under New Labour (and Momentum before them), the default position of the council was inertia. If New Labour were still in control, then the meeting would likely end either with all your wishes agreed to (without a single date); or vague woolly worthless promises to be completed by a specific date.
I have seen this pattern over and over again. I keep receipts.
I sincerely hope my cynicism—born of years of observing this council—are entirely misplaced …
#PublicHealth.
Now.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton
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I would like to challenge the apparent omission of certain voices from those attending meetings about air pollution. I also wish to challenge the apparent assumption that the issue of causation has been solved in advance and can definitively be assumed to be charcoal used in Green Lane restaurants.
My suggestion is that staff working in restaurants appear to be left out of this inquiry - And their trades union membership and potential membership. Also their relevant medical records.
Since restaurants using charcoal are not confined to Green Lanes, data referring to other establishments could be relevant snd possibly helpfil.
I would suggest that some University researchers could have data and reports from other parts of London, which are worth referring to.
I would also be curious to know if there are any data about the possible impact of garden barbecues in the area.
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Alan, yes, good point. The analogy is the staff of pubs, clubs, bars and restaurants who—for decades before serious public health measures were adopted—were obliged to work in foul, hazardous air, laced with second-hand tobacco smoke, for hours on end. This is one of the few areas where I agreed with the Conservatives' Rishi Sunak.
The council's Public Health function has been too quiet for too long. It's as though they've been told to stick to medicine. The Greens need to make this part of a wider environmental policy to crack down on all forms of air pollution. Starting, with the worst contributors.
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Permalink Reply by Grand Parader
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Whilst I hear your genuine concern for health in this - had the same concerns re. my kids when small, breathing diesel fumes and other car emissions when on the way to school - please dont just make this a crusade against the food places on Grand Parade / Green Lanes. Wood burning stoves are a big contributor 4-6 months of the year, and as we learnt in previous posts, car/vehicle tyres are contributing large amounts of PM2.5's
Please include the Traders Association (maybe via Rob Tao) and the Gardens Residents Association (if not already). The Gardens get the most of everything off Green Lanes and the Ladder streets, just by virtue of the prevailing winds.
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Permalink Reply by Samuel Hailstone
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Green Lanes has had ocakbasi restaurants on it for decades. Is the contention that they have increased in number or that their exhaust systems have got more intrusive or worse? It would be good to understand if this complaint is due the situation worsening or residents now deciding that they don't like it.
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DECADES ago, public health data showed that smoking was a serious health hazard.
Public health professionals knew this, decades ago. Because of the enormous vested interests in selling this profitable product, it took decades of measures to reverse the problem.
The GL problem is not on the same scale, but there some parallel features. There are pecuniary interests at stake. GL business interests have enjoyed cosy relationships with the local council for a long time. For example, a few years ago the Labour Group elected one of their number—a GL shopkeeper—as Haringey Mayor. And the "officers" represent a body of inertia.
Perhaps the Greens may put the environment and Public Health above lobbying from commercial interests.
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That's very interesting, but it doesn't answer my question.
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