Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
London Citizens' Inquiry Report into the Tottenham Riots
Did anyone else go yesterday (7 February) to the Launch of the Report by North London Citizens? The Guardian carried an article.
I can't yet find the report online. But if you went, got a copy and have had a chance to read it, I'd be interested in your view.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by 2kvbuy3etav09 on
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I went to the meeting which was inspiring. The report is harsh about the causes of the riots, but the main thrust of the report is to plan the future, and it contains an ambitious but workable timetable for the next two years. There was near unanimous dismay that the police refused to attend the meeting, and they must come on board straight away. Even if they refuse to take any responsibility for the riots at this stage, the police must understand that the mutual distrust that continues between them and the local community will not allow them to do their job properly. That single issue aside, I believe the report is an excellent starting point for rebuilding the community, and I am full of admiration at how so many local people managed to put it together so soon after the traumatic events of last August.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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Thanks, Ann. It's useful to have this easily available online and I was surprised that it wasn't done at the same time as the launch. While the Report lacks understanding and fresh ideas, there's no doubt that the London Citizens' Organisation is very very good at PR.
As you know, although the launch was described as a "conversation", we were actually talked-at for nearly ninety minutes. And I've never seen so many cameras at a local event. The Citizens' Organisation has occupied a large slice of the political and media space.
The online version of the Citizen' Report adds a comment from Paul Lewis of The Guardian. He claims that: "This inquiry is so much more than a cathartic process for a community seeking answers in the aftermath of chaos - it is a thoughtful, reliable and ground-up roadmap for the way forward”.
Both these broad claims are complete nonsense.
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Hi Alan, thanks for responding.
I think we must be talking about a different meeting. I was invited to the press launch of the report, and that was exactly what I attended. There was a short but significant question and answer session of around 15 minutes, and it was clear that there are many problems that won't go away overnight, particularly the difficult relationship between the police and the community. But even if you weren't expecting a press launch and were disappointed by the PR aspects, I don't think you can fake the kind of optimism that was on show on Tuesday.
I think we must also be reading a different report. I'd be curious to hear what your objections are to it?
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Yes, Dave, we were at the same meeting.
The advantage of public discussion and debate is that we can share, compare and discuss our different perceptions, experiences and views.
One of my favourite stories is the parable of the Blind Men and the Elephant. Wikipedia gives Jain, Buddhist, Sufi and Hindu versions. Each ends with the blind men challenged to try calmly and thoughtfully pooling their information to build knowledge and perhaps reach wisdom.
It's a great pity the Citizen's Inquiry didn't understand that basic approach. But HoL members can now read the report themselves and join in the discussion.
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I got the impression that this was very much a work in progress. And that different perceptions were indeed aired (including your own, as I recall) and taken on board.
As someone inspired by the meeting and keen to get involved in the process, it's important to me to know what your objections are to the report, so that I can contribute without feeling I am doing so against certain expressed wishes. So apologies for repeating the question, but what are your objections to the report?
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Fair point, Dave. I'm happy to give my views here. But first I'm interested to learn what other people on HoL make of it - from the meetings or the Report itself. I'm just one of the blind men still gingerly feeling my way round this elephant.
By the way, I may be wrong, but I don't recall making any public contribution to the "Citizens" discussions. Nor do I remember speaking about the riot and what needs to happen, to any of the "Commissioners". (Although Cllr Stuart McNamara and I privately challenged one of them about a particular question he had put.) You may be thinking of the Darra Singh Panel event where I did speak for a couple of minutes.
My partner Zena Brabazon and I met with Alvin Carpio one of the organisers. We found him thoughtful and open-minded.
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Apologies, someone who I thought looked a little like the person in your photograph asked about the exclusion of police representatives from the report. But I was sitting quite far away from them, and as I only saw half a profile I must have got the wrong person!
I would certainly define myself as one of the blind men at this stage. Although, ironically, my eyes were opened on Tuesday.
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It's a pity there weren't many more comments on the North London Citizen's Report.
Anyway, today another post riot Report was launched. It's called Taking Tottenham Forward. The link is to the Council's website where you can read and download it.
This comes from another Panel described as community leaders. This time they were hand-picked by Cllr Claire Kober. Though I've no idea whether in setting it up, she consulted anyone who lives in the areas of Tottenham most affected by the riots.
I held back from commenting further on the previous Citizen's Report as I was hoping to read some wider comments. Anticipating that when I read it again I'd see the positive aspects that Dave Cohen and other people have told me they found.
Well, I'm still looking.
So I was sincerely hoping that the new Report would have a a little more practical substance. Especially as it had several members who are people I like and respect.
Sadly, that's not the case. In some aspects it just restates the blindingly obvious. In others it's badly explained, vague, poorly defined, too narrowly focussed and muddle-headed. Some recommendations, for example the focus on cultural industries - which I assume is linked to the daft Tottenham Green "cultural quarter" - are just misconceived.
Ah well. Back to the drawing board.
(Tottenham Hale ward councillor and resident)
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Well yes it's another report, and there needs to be action soon. As an outsider, I can't comment on the make-up of the various panels, although there does seem to be a broad representation of people from councillors, business, education, the church and social work. It is as an outsider that I'm most interested in becoming involved. As I mentioned before, the part of Haringey I live in feels like it's on another planet, and I'd love to see people from my side of the tracks doing more for the Borough as a whole.
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Dave, I don't doubt your good intentions. Nor the hard work and excellent intentions of the members of the various panels.
Ian Willmore our friend and a former councillor once explained the Politician's Syllogism to me. Seems it was from an episode of the TV comedy series Yes, Minister. In the present situation it works like this:
- Something must be done to tackle the problems in Tottenham. True
- Here is a list of some things to do in Tottenham. True.
- Therefore, these are the things we should be doing. Fallacy
The reason I criticised the process is because if you set up a poor process then you're likely to get a poor outcome. How you do it is what you get. Which is the general principle underlying the better known phrase: "garbage in; garbage out".
Quite fairly, you said that I hadn't properly set out my objections to the first "Citizens Report". The same applies to this one. So that's a task I need to do. This is not, incidentally, because I think there's nothing of value in the reports. Nor am I so arrogant as to think I have all the answers.
I think a lot of people have a lot of useful and different ideas, experience and answers. So we should put Commissions and similar nonsense in the bin, and start using different and better tools to achieve dialogue and build united judgements.
Sorry if this sounds negative. But somebody has to speak truth to power. Six months have passed since the riot and we really haven't got very far. Tottenham needs and deserves better.
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I think a more realistic list at the moment runs like this:
1. Something must be done to tackle the problems in Tottenham True
2. No one outside of Tottenham, especially the coalition government, is going to do anything. Any admission on their part that government intervention can help will immediately negate the austerity package they signed us up for.True
3. Therefore, the only people who can do anything are the local community. Hopefully a fallacy
I totally understand your feelings towards Commissions and the like, we've all been there and seen how useless 99% of them have been. But these ones already have the advantage of starting from within the community rather than being imposed from outside. And the most important aspect to me seems to be that there is a will to succeed. That's why, despite everything, I'm stupidly optimistic.
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