Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Litter and parenting
Where do litterbugs come from?
Yesterday walking down Oakfield Road I saw a mother and son coming in the opposite direction and the boy just tossed some kind of wrapping by a tree in the pavement. I watched this action and must have followed the paper descending to the ground. I think the mother must have seen me looking and she told the boy to pick it up straight away and for good measure she said, you know you don't do that sort of thing. I almost said to the mother, well done!
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Contrast this with the experience I had in Paddington Station some years ago when I was almost assaulted over litter by a feral parent. While waiting in a queue to buy a ticket, a boy picked up a brochure from a rack and just threw it on the floor. A woman on her way out, swooped down, picked it up and put it back in the rack and carried on, in a non-verbal critique of the child's conduct, in plain view of the father, who was clearly failing in his duty.
It was either the boy or the father who then took the pamplet out of the rack again and threw it on the floor again. Standing just behind the father, and having weighed up the situation, I gently suggested to the father that "someone is going to have to pick that up", meaning a cleaner.
Feral father than went into fight-mode, clenching his fists, weaving from side to side and shouting "shut up, shut up, shut up". Even though the father was significantly shorter than me, I had no wish to engage in a fight over a piece of paper, so I said evenly "ok", having made my point.
Having seen the appalling example set by the parent, that boy is likely to be a life-long litterer and probably pass his conduct on to any progeny.
Should parents not be more accountable for the conduct of their offspring?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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Alan with due respect to your own approach, I find it hard to distinguish between seeking
(a) endlessly to understand the reasons for anti-social behaviour and
(b) making excuses for it.
There comes a time when the excuses need to end. I am reminded of my brother-in-law's slogan, "you don't negotiate with children!"
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Can you tell us the last time your scientific enquiry led you to conclude you were wrong about something important?
Yes. In the face of now overwhelming evidence, I conclude that I was wrong about the merits of the Euro.
I admit that the Conservative Euro-Sceptics of the mid-1990s, who were such a thorn in the side of John Major's government, were right all along.
The Euro is a great idea in principle but it is now clear that monetary union without political union cannot work in practice. And if member states lie and cheat it becomes a dangerous game. There is now no time to implement meaningful political union (even if that were desirable) before the monetary union collapses.
I was talking a little earlier to an ex-colleague, a former member of the stock exchange and we agreed that it is now likely that at least some Euro countries are working secretly and feverishly on "Plan B", in which the Euro partially disintegrates. They would be irresponsible not to be working on such plans.
The corollary of this is that, in the meantime, little or nothing that is said by Eurocrats or European politicians on this subject is necessarily to be believed. The present UK Government must be diplomatic of course, but all three main political parties need to recognize the reality. I think many people started reappraising when Jack Straw pointed out in Parliament some weeks ago the likelihood of a default by Greece.
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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I negotiate with my children. I think they're a lot better for it. Please, nobody else take Clive's parenting advice. I have been brought up thinking you can't negotiate with authority and occasionally watch friends & colleagues who do while I mentally slap my head.
BTW, Touche Clive. The Euro was, in hindsight anyway, subjective. Alan is asking for objective. Alan, not everything is objective so asking for "evidence" is unfair and quite a strong word. I think the word you're usually looking for is "why".
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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Clive, you are arguing against "straw men". People who "recommend we do sociological research indefinitely". Or who are seek "endlessly to understand the reasons for anti-social behaviour".
Although we may agree if you mean that theories and research/inquiry about practical problems are useful only if they lead to practical solutions. Then so would philosophers from Aristotle to Marx who referred to praxis.
To achieve effective action, theory and practice must work together. We also need "reflection" and further inquiry into what worked and why - or why not.
If this seems like just words, and nothing to do with real problems, I assure you it is everything to do with them. For example, in Haringey the bonkers separation of "policy" officers from "operational" staff was one reason why the Council was not as smart as it should have been in finding practical solutions to day-to-day problems.
By the way, do you really believe that the non-littering members of society and "the authorities" should act like parents to wild litterers? Should we have the power to send Max to bed without any supper?
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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on
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actually John D, all that is needed are good examples - an environment where people feel guilty about dropping litter..
As I was walking out of the station I was thinking about this discussion..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/isarsteve/6202557361/in/photostream
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I began this thread with two experiences that I reported as faithfully as possible as anecdotal evidence of the parental example over littering. I'd like to see Alan – or anyone else – see if they can comment, or draw any conclusions, even tentative ones.
These two incidents impressed me. I haven't done a lot of research and I do wonder about the motives of those who call for more research or "understanding" - is it really so difficult to work out why people drop litter? It is not rocket science.
I see litter as having some of the characteristics of another filthy habit, smoking. Unless one is a smoker or litterer by about the late teens, one is unlikely to pick up these habits at a later age (this is why in the past tobacco companies, despite their denials, have targeted children).
Therefore the parental example is surely paramount in the long run.
I'm not suggesting the council officers should have the power to sent Max to bed without supper, but suggest that in this area, the authorities are making up for parental failure, and no less when the litterer might be a pensioner.
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It's not just laziness. I've had some people tell my children that if they didn't drop litter their 'uncle/cousin/father' would be out of a job.
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I'm curious as to how your children might reply John?
(ps. hope you haven't been negotiating with them over the value of dropping litter ;-)
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Our City owned refuse collector 'targets' children
i.e. which products go into which bin.. also the kids work as home ambassadors getting their parents to correctly separate rubbish.. this is especially helpful in families from other cultures..
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Clive, you invite us draw conclusions from your two anecdotes. A woman gently reprimands a child for dropping litter. (Possibly she is the child's mother; you don't know.) A man - who you also assume is the parent - gets angry when you suggest he shouldn't let the child litter.
My conclusion is that you should reflect very carefully on how far even this "evidence" supports your simplistic view: litterers and ferals; Eloi and Morlocks; Good and Evil. With an almost biblical generational curse: "Having seen the appalling example set by the parent, that boy is likely to be a life-long litterer and probably pass his conduct on to any progeny."
My second conclusion: you are saying nothing more than that children learn from and copy parents. Yes, indeed. Though children also learn from each other, from other adults and everything they see and hear around them. That's the reason why schools and other institutions have a vital part to play in tackling these issues. And why community engagement is important - for adults as well as children.
As my final comment on this thread, here are some simple practical suggestions for you.
Please re-read Lix Ixer's thoughtful comments based on her close observations - and sometimes photos - over a couple of years; as she walked round and observed a range of behaviours in and around Harringay. What Liz calls the ethnography of dumping and littering. Here's the link.
Please re-read as well her independent, critical and first-hand observations of the Haringey staff she met as a Community Volunteer and their approach to the dumpers and litterers. Consider if perhaps this is a more accurate view than your own speculations. Here's that link.
Finally, if you want to do something small modest and useful, I suggest you email Lyn Garner Director of the Environment Department asking if she will support and expand the Community Volunteers team.
lyn.garner@haringey.gov.uk
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(Possibly she is the child's mother; you don't know.) A man - who you also assume is the parent
You're quite right, it is merely "possible" that the woman is the child's mother and I merely "assume" that the man was the child's father. But I have to say that the remark appears to be wilfully perverse!
Can you explain in each case, why it is not highly likely that the adult in question was either the parent or guardian?
The remark gives the appearance of going to any length necessary in order to avoid holding any individual(s) accountable for litter or responsible for the inculcation of tidy behaviour.
you are saying nothing more than that children learn from and copy parents
But if this is true, is it not saying quite a lot about litter prevention?! Does it not suggest where effort might need to be directed, in the long run, if we are to get cleaner streets?
community engagement is important
For repeat offenders – and to make an example – public flogging might be more effective, although I concede that Haringey's "policy" officers are unlikely to endorse that.
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