Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Ken muses on trams for Haringey?
Trams at Finsbury Park, circa 1910
Trams could be seen again on the roads of Haringey for the first time in more than 70 years if Ken Livingstone gets back into office.
The HJ reported that he has a vision for trams connecting north London from east to west so that commuters are no longer forced to travel into London and out again. But he's not making any manifesto commitments at this stage.
Chris Barker, transport spokesman for the Haringey Federation of Residents Associations, told the Journal: “When it comes down to discussing where it would go there would be problems, because fitting in the infrastructure would be difficult.
“But I would hope residents would respond very positively to having a tram system - as residents have in Croydon, where it is very popular and has revived the town centre. We’d like to be able to replicate that. I’m delighted that Ken has taken this up.”
If you're a tram fan, before you get too excited, it should also be borne in mind that a full eco-housing estate has been built with unused copies of previous grand London tram schemes. Ken's 2002 scheme is one such example.
Perhaps you can satisfy yourself for the time being with some of the tram stuff we have here on HoL and our own Harringay-born tram expert can give us something of the history of trams in the borough. Stephen?
Tags for Forum Posts: public transport, trams
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on
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What about this one then?
Seven Sisters Road at Blackstock Road in 1922. Two L.C.C trams, 'Class A' No.73 (1903) and 'Class D' No.307 (1904) seen at the three track section, necessary due to the longer loading/unloading times required by the high number of interchange passengers Tube/Tram. The middle track was worked in the direction of the peak traffic.. Route 31 (Euston Road - Palmers Green) was a short working of the 29 tram (Euston Road - Enfield).
A L.G.O.C. K-type bus (built at Walthamstow) on route 78, which in 1922 worked Dulwich- Finsbury Park. The 78 was cut back to today's northern terminus at Shoreditch more than eighty years ago.
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Permalink Reply by Anette on
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I come from Oslo where trams are very common. However, they're a pain the backside during the winter months. This because the piles of snow makes the roads narrower, parked cars will inevitably stop the tram from going where it needs to go, and the chaos begins. Imagine what relatively narrow Green Lanes would be like with a tram running up and down it, frequent stops and parked cars + buses, the usual traffic... Ken's an idiot, but he proved than when he forced the bendy buses on us I suppose. There's NO WAY he'll be elected again, he got way too arrogant in his last term. And this from someone who used to think he was exactly what London needed. No so much anymore.
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Yes Annette , believe it or not I agree with some of your sentiment.. If I lived in London I certainly wouldn't vote tory.. In London, they only ever care about the City and Financial institutions and ALWAYS run Public Transport down -always!
I too, think the choice of Ken was the wrong one.. But that choice follows my current views on the U.K. as a whole, as being in a 'backward looking mood'.. Choosing Ken, fits in well with that idea.. The future does look bleak, but vision is needed - not harking back to a past that never really existed. I don't hear much, if any, vision coming out of the current government.
As for the trams, I strongly support Public Transport, don't own my own car, but I have use of a company car and travel to work everyday by public transport. I'm of the view that we can't go on with every household owning 1,5 cars.. Also the 74€ x10 months that my monthly costs (two months free) for the equivalent of the 1-4 London zones (Berlin A+B), plus that fact that someone else can travel with me + 2children after 20:00 & at weekends means it's cheaper than using a car..
London is in my opinion, much too dependant on diesel fuel for it's public transport. With over 8,500 buses it is IMO much too dependant. The city also really lacks adequate high quality outer surburban services and the chances of building the amount of underground lines that are needed to get down the number of car journeys are virtually nil..
Trams fit in well in the range between buses & tubes/ surburban trains .. they can carry large numbers of passengers over the middle range distances, say Camden Town - Harringay much more efficiently and environmentally friendly than buses can. Building new lines is not that expensive, compared to building a new Underground lines.. It has been seen in France (Paris) and in Germany (München) that the provision of new tramways increases the numbers of journeys that people make.. over sections previously worked by buses - Both cities continue to build new Underground and Tramway routes..
London's roads are not too narrow to take trams - they are however, too narrow to cope with all the cars that try to use them. One three car tram car carry 150-250 people Harringay - Camden Town in approx 15 mins- how many cars do you need to do that? And how long does it take at the peak times..?
As for the snow problems.. we have plenty of snow in Winter with temps down to -20°C and the trams 'manage' .. London doesn't have much snow anyway.. although there is complete bus chaos when it does, because the vehicles are not fitted with winter tyres.. No doubt you have them in Norway. We have them in Germany too, where it is law to use them in snow.. either that or leave your car at home..
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I think trams like these would be perfect for the route Wood Green - Camden Town - Victoria (historical 29).. these carry over 250 passengers a go..:
Or for those a bit overwhelmed by such long ones.. there is a shorter version for local routes:
BTW, trams similar to these, built in Germany, have been ordered for Blackpool and will be in service from Easter 2012..
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Permalink Reply by William Booth on
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I have something less long, but higher in mind! The size of two double deckers, more or less.
I too would like to see trams back on the streets of London. I've got a sort of daydream scheme loosely written up here: http://technicalslip.wordpress.com/2011/09/21/a-modest-proposal/
which would see (initially) the 29, 253, 254, 259, 279 replaced by trams, with possible expansion onto the A10 to the City, further down Green Lanes to Canonbury Station or Newington Green, and onto the old Muswell Hill-Finsbury Park route.
The problem with Ken's idea is it is lateral, which is fine (and admirable) but won't really deal with the overcapacitated arterial routes into town. As people have pointed out, getting cars off the road is part of the problem.
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Yes, along those lines! Except on rails, and coupled to one another back to back. Classy, practical and in a recognisably local lineage.
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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Anne, Would you add your pic to the gallery or shall I do it ad credit you?
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I particularly like the signs telling pedestrians (as well as drivers) which districts/towns are in which direction. Huge road signs are all very well but you can only see them from one side, and they aren't 'neutral' in the sense that they tell you how to drive somewhere, not where something is.
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WB, yes the sign is very attractive, but not really helpful.. We've had this discussion before- most places on the sign were those reachable by public transport from Manor House.
Woodford, Epping, Southend to the East, Camden Town, Shepherds Bush to the West, plus those that can be seen to the North. The only exception is 'The East End' to the South - I wonder why it was thought necessary to add that?
BTW, according to my records, the sign and pole had been removed by July 1955. The wiring layout was altered over the years to assist the buses in the increasing traffic.. In 1950, 274 trolleybuses per hour! worked through the Manor House Junction wires + 15 per hour turning at Manor House (Seven Sisters Rd - Route 623) ..By 1958 this had increased to 310 per hour in the morning peak + 18 turning on route 623.
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Thanks for the link WB .. need some time to digest it all..
In the meantime:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/isarsteve/6104026673/
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I've being looking over your plans and blog WB and of course would support all the routes you suggest. As I've said before, I think London is much to dependent on the diesel bus .. which certainly aren't so eco-friendly as the trams. I also think it's about time that inter-suburb routes were provided with high-quality services.
What strikes me is that all of your proposed routes (apart from the short section from Seven Sisters Corner to Tottenham Hale) were once covered by tram routes.. In fact, all the routes you intend to replace, are all electric transport (tram and later trolleybus replacement routes).
I also understand your desire to use d/d trams but don't think such a scheme would be economically viable.. and who would build them? It's just cheaper to purchase models already on the market.
London's streets are not too narrow for trams, but they are too narrow for all the cars that try to use them. It's time to take back the 'right of way' that car users is their 'divine right'.
I hope you don't mind me adding a couple of my example vids:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/isarsteve/6273327710/in/photostream/li...
These streets are similar in width to Green Lanes and also have just as much traffic. They illustrate that trams and cars can work well together..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/isarsteve/6241603680/in/photostream/li...
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Those videos are very encouraging. As you say, economic realities would probably dictate the sourcing of already-existing rolling stock, but I could live with that!
I think you're right to pick up on the point about cars and the assumed 'right of way' which we already see vis-a-vis many other road users - confrontations with cyclists and pedestrians, the difficulty of getting priority lanes for buses working properly etc.
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