Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
HOL and diversity.
I know that in theory HoL is 'open to all' but I wonder whether a survey of our. members has been done? This area is after all v ethnically mixed and I don't see that reflected much here. If not what can we do to bring in local groups or individuals so they are also part of our online community?
Tags for Forum Posts: HoL inclusiveness
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Birdy_Too on
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I completely agree SB.
HOL is a wonderful community tool in one respect but seems only to attract a certain section of our community (largely speaking). I would argue that HOL is in no way, a representation of our area. How we try and attract others sections of our community is a difficult one.
There are a couple of obvious barriers, language as this is an English speaking website. Are other sections of the community put off by HOLs overwhelming 'professional middle class' (don't now how to describe that social group?) membership?
Is HOL too ‘highbrow’ or formal, after all most one here seem to be of a reasonable educational and intellectual standard, but this area is not known for it’s high intellectual merits, so where are the rest of the community?
I don’t think too much has been done to broaden the social and cultural scope of this website, maybe a conscious decision, I don’t know. It would be great to see a wider membership, how we go about that is anyone’s guess, suggestions?
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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Sapphireblue,
Worth having a look at this discussion and this one.
I'm all for inclusiveness on the site. Indeed that was one of its guiding principles, to be inclusive in every sense of the word.
Since you mention that the area is "v ethnically mixed", it seems like the inclusiveness you have in mind relates to ethnicity. Below are the demographics figures I worked out when I was writing the Wikipedia article on Harringay. They're from the most recent census (2001) and are for the super output areas that make up Harringay :
The racial breakdown is: 70% white, 15% black, 9% Asian, 3% Mixed and 3% other. 72% of its inhabitants were born in Europe, with 12% in Asia, 9% in Africa (mainly Eastern & Southern), and 4% in North America. Within this mix, 6% were born in Cyprus and 3% in Turkey.
We don't ask any ethnicity questions of our members on joining and currently we have no plans to change that or to issue any members' survey designed to establish their ethnicity.
I doubt we match the census figures pound for pound, but I have no way of knowing how far akilter we are. What I can tell you is that every time I've made an assumption about a member or the membership in general, I've learned that I'm often wrong. I'd be interested to know the assumptions that are you making and the basis of them? I ask this by way of enquiry not challenge.
I was in touch with every local group in the area when the site was set up, and continue to reach out sporadically. I've learned that a big welcome mat isn't enough. Probably the best thing to do is to meet the groups face-to-face and keep talking to them. Any HoL member can take on this ambassadorial role.
With individuals, my sense is just to make sure we get profiled in as diverse a range of places as possible. Sporadically, I do things like dropping our ad cards off at the local internet cafes.
I wonder if the issue is less one of diversity of membership and more one of diversity of active participation. And that's a different discussion.
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Birdy,
In response to your points, one thought is to refer to what I wrote to SB above; I wonder if the issue is about who participates, not who's a member?
I think we picked up on the language issue in one of the previous discussions I linked to in my previous response. With the current status of technology, whilst HoL remains web-based, I can't see any easy way round that.
If you think HoL is too highbrow, I'd be interested to hear what specific suggestions you'd make to change that.
You raise the issue of "education and intellectual standard". I'd hesitate to imply a natural link between the two issues, so will deal with the educational aspect. In that respect, you've heard me talking at a recent HoL meeting about the Tyranny of Text. By this I mean how certain groups in society can be less inclined to participate in purely text-based communication media. This may relate to education, personal preference, self-confidence and sometimes age. My proposal to counter this is that we make much greater use of video-based media on the site. Many of us now have smart phones that make acquiring video easy. I did make an appeal on the site to ask people to contribute video media by way of citizen reporting, but all of us have yet to get in the habit.
Thanks for opening this discussion up again SB. It's a useful and thought provoking one to have.
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Just to correct you Hugh I said "Is it too highbrow", not "I think it's too highbrow"? I also didn't think there would be a way around the language issue, it's just a point that may deter people who don't have great English - I don't really see a way around this.
A very simple browse through the members names, although course and vague would suggest that members are not from all areas of the community based on first and second names. A basic assumption I admit.
I think we should be allowed to comment on certain issues regarding HOL which I think would improve the site, I wouldn’t like you to perceive my comments as digs but as constructive after all we have discussed this on a few occasions, without really concluding anything.
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I'd absolutely love people to comment on issues, make suggestions, help out etc. It's why I set up the HoL Group and why I've made sure that we have a good feedback facility (and that any feedback or question gets a ready and rapid response). Anything we can do to get constructive debate around the site and making it into what most members want is great. If we can reach a conclusion that drives action, better still collaborative action, even better.
I thanked SB for opening up this debate above and do so again. It's an important discussion to have. Certainly didn't perceive any of your comments as digs.
What would be your guess on the ethnic mix of the membership Birdy, using the member name test or any other method?
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I haven't a clue to be honest Hugh but it doesn't seem to be represent able, just as when I walked down Green Lanes to do some shopping now, doesn't seem represented by the folks here. You too can pick any page of the members list and gauge membership, taking away the indistinguishable who don't use their proper names : ) Just as the Salisbury or any given café probably doesn’t give an accurate slice of the community. Hey I’m not saying it’s wrong as we all have cultural differences and places we want to spend our time, but HOL is a community site not a cultural hangout, or is it?
A random members page of 21 suggests 16 have ‘traditional’ Western names, 2 have ‘nicknames’ and 3 appear to be of another ethnic origin. I have said this is extremely random and possibly no too accurate, but you get the jist.
Do you think HOL represents a screenshot of the population of Harringay? If you were honest with yourself you know the answer. The question is and has been for a while how do we get it more representable, if that is at all possible. You can drag a horse to water and all that….. Maybe it shows a bigger problem in society?
A perfect example would be to take one of the schools and see the breakdown, if that was a true reflection it isn’t or at least doesn’t seem represented here, baring in mind some folk float in from outside there area in both situations
The Wiki article states 70% white, didn't that very same page (or it could have been another?) state 50% a couple of years ago?
I do admit that it is difficult to gauge without concrete evidence as a study in north Staffs concluded when the local ‘white’ community were asked what the ethnicity of the city was, the average was 35%, when in fact it is 3%. I didn’t raise this topic although have raised it at meetings before so the conclusion is there from others too, whether it is true or not.
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Actually there's a perfectly valid research technique that uses people's sense of something rather than data to get a good measurement. So I take on board what you feel as useful data.
I'd assumed something pretty similar myself previously, then had a couple of my assumptions disproved. So I'm no longer certain.
If I take your sample, that would give:
- 76.2% of members with 'traditional' Western names
- 14.3% apparently of non-western origin
- 9.5% unknown
I guess the traditional western names could apply equally to black British and white British. Making an allowance for this or not, the figures from your sample are not way off the census demographics.
Now I'm not arguing the matter one way or the other. What I am keen to do is to challenge assumptions that may not be true.
As far as the Wikipedia article is concerned, no I don't think it ever said 50%. If it did, it was wrong. The figures there now are directly from the census. (FYI, here's the Wikipedia page from early 2007)
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I may be getting confused with another statistic then, maybe Haringey - I don't know.
I take your point with 'traditional' names been applied to other non-white British people, and thought that myself. You are right these are assumptions, perceptions and loose gut (not that loose gut!) feelings and that's why I always stated that this was in no way accurate or true, it could be though that's my point and the fact that someone else has raised it (amongst others) means that the perception is there, justified or not.
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Digital inclusion is probably another issue that's relevant. Government figures from earlier this year conclude that 72% of Londoners have access to the internet at home; that rises to 76% when access at the workplace is included. If we assume that Harringay is average in this respect, and I think that's about right, then between 24 and 28% of Harringaeites can't easily access HoL. (Figures are from OFCOM's Nations & Regions Tracker, Q1 2009).
This is one of the reasons I target the local internet cafes with cards and in other ways.
Some while ago now I had a conversation with the owner of Fast Tech, the internet-cum-computer repair place on Green Lanes, about setting HoL as their home page on their internet cafe screens in return for free advertising on HoL. He's open to it, but made the point that most customers want to go straight to Goggle. There must be a way round that - having HoL set up as the home page with a stand-out link to Google and other popular apps. Any techies out there who can help?
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That's an idea.........which gives me another thought - we could just get him to download the HoL toolbar. I use it for easy access to HoL and it doesn't slow anything down. Might be a halfway house.
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Permalink Reply by Sapphireblue on
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Well there is a large and visible presence of Turkish/Kurdish/Greek and Cypriot peoples in this area, not to mention Afro-Caribbean, African and a few Asian - how can we get them to become active on our local resource website and contribute to discussions in a way that reflects diversity visibly?
One suggestion is to take flyers/leaflets to the West Indian Cultural Centre and to give this centre a logo/link (if they have an online site) on the HoL main page. The opening page needs to draw other ethnic groups in somehow - perhaps we could ask the owner of Cafe Limon (for example -I believe he has links to writers and journalists) to start off the odd discussion relating to the interests of the Turkish community and encourage a few friends to respond?? The same for anyone who has links to someone from the varied communities - anyone know someone Polish? Kurdish? Greek willing to start off a discussion relevant to each of these communites? We should be talking action here I think, not what we can't do....that is not a criticism of anyone, nor a reflection on the large amount of work that Hugh does (and has done) in putting this great online resource together... Can YOU (any of you out there)get someone you know from a different group to help HoL look a bit more diverse?? To start the ball rolling and talk about your local community?
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