Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Heavy Police Presence On Saturday Night.
Anyone know what it was all about. Green Lanes was blocked on two separate occasions and massed police were marching up and down with great purpose. It felt like a pre-planned operation, rather than reacting to some incident.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Gordon Farcas on
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Britain was a civilising influence. This is the opposite. We are right to be concerned.
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Permalink Reply by Nicky on
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You are deluded Gordon.
The reality was harsh, brutal and dehumanising.https://www.thecollector.com/what-were-the-most-terrible-acts-of-th...
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Were the introduction of western education, medicines, science, high yield agricultural practices, rule of law, judicial process, enlightenment thinking, art, literature, westminster parliamentary processes, democracy, separation of powers, minimisation of inter-tribal conflict, suppression of slavery etc etc etc all harsh, brutal and dehumanising?
No, I don't think so either.
Perhaps think about what our colonies were like before we arrived. How were they treated by their ruling elites? How did they treat their enemies? How regular were their famines? How many died from preventable illnesses and diseases? What were infant mortality rates like? Etc etc etc.
It's silly to impose our modern views on historical actors. It's better to compare those actors to their contempories.
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Yeah as I said you’re deluded. Imposing our views is exactly what we did. You are the one is looking through rose tinted glasses.
‘Environmental degradation, economic underdevelopment, racial profiling, systemic racism, and poor social infrastructure manifested in unequal access to health care, education and social justice were among the effects of colonialism’
https://www.ohchr.org/en/get-involved/stories/racism-discrimination....
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Not at all. I suspect it is you who is looking at things through tinted glasses and with two Marxist lenses!
Let's look at your quote.
Environmental degradation - we left most colonies in the immediate post-WW2 period. Much of the degradation you're probably alluding to has been since then. Local responsibility.
Economic underdevelopment - similar to the point above. Most countries were well run with healthy economies full of potential when we left. What has happened since? Local corruption and mismanagement. I offer Jamaica and Zimbanwe (rather than Rhodesia) as examples.
Racial profiling - not sure what you mean in this context
Systemic racism - we kept most of this under control but you might want to consider the Indian caste system which was in place hundreds of years before we even got there and remains so. Or you could consider inter-tribal hatred and warfare which has been endemic in Africa for hundeds of years and its got nothing to do with lines we drew on maps. Consider the Bantu tribes or the Zulus. Not exactly friendly neighbours. We protected weaker tribes from stronger ones.
Poor social infrastructure - considering they had very little when we arrived we left them in a good position with trains, roads, schools and hospitals etc. Since then, well you know the answer.
Education - we gave them models, schools and trained teachers and many have done well as a result but many of our former colonies have simply not invested.
Heath care - similar to education, we gave them the tools and infrastructure but in many cases it wasn't maintained or prioritised.
Social justice - same as above.
Also, compare the state of our former colonies to those of France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium or Germany and ask yourself who was and is better off. And to make the comparisom easier you can exclude Canada, New Zealand, Australia and South Africa (well until recently anyway - thank you ANC).
You might also want to consider the Japanese, Ottomans or virtually any other empire in history. They weren't nice now were they.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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I had long been convinced, Gordon, that behind the right-wing mask, there was an intelligent, thoughtful, well-read person. Someone who knew perfectly well that every Empire was validly and justifiably due heavy criticism.
Or at the very least nuanced negative assessment in fairness equal to the loud gushing praises sung by its sons and daughters. at ceremonial flag-waving events.
I assumed too, that you would quote the famous couplet:
"Whatever happens, we have got
The Maxim gun, and they have not".
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A Haringey linked addition to Gordon Farcas' mention that "We" enlightened westerners "suppressed slavery etc etc etc " .
Accurate of course. But only if the largest part of this history is left out / edited/tidied away.
Some members of Harringay Online will recall that Yvonne Field posted in 2014 a link to the pdf text of Sylvia L. Collicott's: Speech on the 200th Anniversary of the Slave Trade Abolition Act: a North London Perspective
https://www.haringey.gov.uk/sites/haringeygovuk/files/sylvia_collic...Sylvia Collicott's speech mentions the contribution of the Quakers - including members of the Tottenham Quaker community - in securing abolition. She mentions too that the 1807 law was not fully enforced.
I'll own up to my own ignorance here. But I was subsequently lucky to come across work by the historian Marcus Rediker. Whose books include a fascinating biography of Benjamin Lay (January 26, 1682 – February 8, 1759) a Quaker dwarf from Essex who ended up in Pennsylvania and confronted fellow Quakers who still owned slaves at that time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Lay
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I had long been convinced, Alan, that behind the left-wing mask, there was an intelligent, thoughtful, well-read person. Someone who knew that people see the world through different lenses, have different values, look at evidence and their own 'lived experience' and draw completely different conclusions to our own.
You are correct in saying that every empire is due some criticism. Of course. For example, during the time of Empire we weren't particularly nice to the Boers as Nicky pointed out. What gets me is that the leftist commentariat always singles out the British Empire for excessive criticism, despite it being one of the most beneficial forces the world has seen. We have a far better record than any other European empire in history and an infinitely better one than say the Ottomans, Mughals, Japanese. On balance, our contribution should be celebrated.
You also have to ask yourself why it was that we had the maxim gun. Why did we have the engineering, scientific and entrepreneurial skills to develop it while others did not? What was it about western European societies that saw them comepte with each other in so many fields to drive progress and improve the world?
It's not because we were inherently superior as some at the time thought (and what most groups around the world have always thought of themselves eg. Chinese and Japanese viewed Europeans as barbarians and you can only imagine their views of other races or what the Brahmins think of those beneath them).
So what was it?
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You say, Gordon, that we also have to ask why it was that we had the Maxim gun... " Or whatever it was that made a crucial historical difference.
Lots of knowledgable people have asked that sort of question.But I suggest there's a preliminary question: whether a questioner is genuinely interested in exploring one or more possible answers. Differing answers which might reflect badly or very badly on their group, nationality, religious affiliation etc etc.
Is the purpose genuine dialogue with the aim of better understanding and improved accuracy? Or is it like a point scoring game with a fixed outcome?
I mentioned Benjamin Lay for several reasons. He and his wife Sarah lived for a time in Barbados when it was the junction of a vast international industry of slave trading; and later in Pennsylvania, also a slave-owning society. As they learned - "from below" about their society it clashed with their Quaker beliefs and principles. Leading them to challenge their fellow Quakers to abandon slavery. They didn't need to ask themselves what would drive progress and improve the world. And crucially they didn't need to "imagine the views of other races". It was in front of their eyes. And from the mouths of enslaved people they met day-by-day. Marcus Redicker draws from the graphic descriptions in Benjamin Lay's book; published by his friend Ben Franklin in Philadelphia.
Elsewhere. owning Maxim or other guns didn't mean the "we" who owned them were compelled to carry out massacres.
Gordon, can I assume you have read Jared Diamond's books? Including "Guns Germs and Steel"?
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Permalink Reply by tigha on
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So after turkey won their previous match, the goal scorer gave the "wolfs" finger salute. They are fascist brutal organisation. Then local Turks I think smashed up cars on green lanes. So assume the police presence was alive and expecting trouble
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