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Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!

Residents, Residents Groups and Traders in the Green Lanes / Harringay Ladder area may not be aware of the handsome consultation document detailing the new Green Lanes proposals which has just been published on behalf of the Green Lanes Strategy Group.

This is available to download at:
www.haringey.gov.uk/green_lanes_scheme.

Paper copies have been produced in limited quantity and are available at Stroud Green Library, Tao Sports and Cherie Hair Salon.

Views and comments are invited and welcomed and the closing date for these is 21 June 2013. 'If no major objections are received', works are planned to start in July/August 2013 and will last 9-12 months.

Comments should be emailed to: frontline.consultation@haringey.gov.uk
or posted to: Frontline Consultation, London Borough of Haringey, FREEPOST NAT 20390, PO Box 264, London N22 8BR

This is the one opportunity to have a close look at all the detail and to make constructive comments.

Tags for Forum Posts: glsg, green lanes corridor, green lanes plan, green lanes strategy, harringay green lanes town centre, harringay ladder, outer London und, pocket park, town centre improvements

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I'd like them to look at making Green Lanes 15 mph through Grand Parade. You may say that the traffic rarely goes even that fast, but when there's a gap cars shoot along. Or it could be priority to pedestrians, so that cars have to look out for and give way to pedestrians wishing to cross- you take your life in your hands at the moment.

South Australian school zones which are signposted at 25 km/h.

If we could get our local MP to kick start some legislation, we may
avoid further potential for fatalities across London, where railings
have been removed.

15 miles seems right. I know they're after 20 On GL.

I think of the problems after school club had getting kids to safely
cross GL to Woodlands Park Road from Sth H School.

20 miles = 32 km

24.855 miles =40 km

15miles = 24 km

I agree about making this part of Green Lanes 15 mph.  It would make the shared space in front of the Salisbury work much better, and improve the shopping environment generally.  The trees proposed will really green up this part of Green Lanes. There is a great  example of tree planting on Fonthill Road which has now matured nicely and really improved that street.

I agree that the north of Harringay could look a little bare if there aren't more trees to balance it up. I like the little bit of pedestrianisation of the piazza, this will discourage traffic and that bottleneck by the Salisbury/Tesco when oncoming traffic is continually blocked.  People put rubbish anywhere they can regardless of width of pavement but If a place is kept clean and looks well cared for this will discourage fly-tipping. Overall, it seems just what the area needs; a bit of sprucing up.

I remember the earlier consultation (and also commented on it) but I don't remember there being anything about ladder road traffic flows in it. How and why has an expensive trial to reverse the flow on Hewit been tacked on to what is essentially a scheme to give Green Lanes a facelift? That surely should be considered as part of a separate traffic management scheme? It seems such an ill-thought out concept in what is an otherwise sound scheme and is introducing discontent when we should instead be celebrating this major investment in our community.

Hi Barbara, just about everyone agrees with you this is going to be largely fab, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss aspects of it, thats why its out for consultation surely? And this Hewit Rd traffic direction change is interesting. It wasn't mentioned previously so there's little known about the details or reasoning for it and from the information given its a bit hard to understand. And there is no indication of how the "experiment" will be judged to have been a success or failure, or for how long its going to run.

Here are some back of an envelope calculations:

The justification for the direction change is: "This will benefit the pedestrian environment and will maximise the potential for the new high quality public space at the St Ann’s Road and Green Lanes junction.".

Surely the amount of traffic at the St Anns junction will remain the same, it doesn't matter if the cars came from Hewit, or some other Ladder road if they wanted to go by St Anns before they're still going to do that after the Hewit direction change too.

So surely it will make minimal difference to the pedestrian environment at St Anns?

What i can see the change doing is making a dramatic reduction in the traffic on Hewit Rd, i'd guess it would be in the same order of magnitude difference as the bollards did for the Gardens. Presently Hewit is one of the busiest Ladder roads, i suppose because of the direct route to St Anns. Looking at what traffic would be using Hewit after the change: any traffic wanting to get to Wightman Rd will get split over the ten Ladder roads where the traffic goes that direction, but Hewit would be the last choice because being in the middle people would most likely have already turned off and/or will want to avoid the congestion that happens at the St Ann's junction, so Hewit would likely get much less than 10% probably something like just a couple of percent of that traffic, going from one of the busiest Ladder roads to one of the quietest. 

So compared to now Hewit Rd gets a massive reduction in traffic.

Looking at what happens to the traffic that used to go down Hewit Rd: To the north there is Fairfax and Beresford, to the south there is Permberton. All the other ones the traffic direction is the other way or the routes have additional traffic lights along the way so people would be more likely to avoid them. So traffic that used to get split over four streets now gets split over just three, and Hewit being the busiest before would have had a higher proportion of traffic than those other three. Lets guess Hewit before got 50% of the traffic (from that snow traffic analysis post a while ago i don't think this is an unreasonable guess)  and so the other three 16% each. Now that traffic from Hewit gets spread over those other three roads so thats and additional 16% each, plus the 16% they already had.

Result: Fairfax, Beresford, and Permberton probably about to have their current traffic volume doubled.

Obvioulsy I don't really have much of a clue and this could all be completly wrong, i'd love to have it explained here by someone who knew more.

I can see there is a bottle neck at the St Anns junction but i don't really see how changing the Hewit direction will help that very much, the cars wanting to get there will still go there and get stuck at the lights so will still be cluttering up the place wont they? They'll just be coming from streets like Pemberton and Beresford, both right at the pocket park and Grand Parade, so not much change just moving traffic around a bit.

You've suggested the change is worth it but acknowledge it will get worse else where - other residents aside, Pemberton has South Harringay Primary and Junior schools, Fairfax has the Fairland Park green space, is this really worth doubling the traffic out side those?

I've emailed Nilgun asking for more detail about the reasoning behind this and how the trial will be judged, will post back here if i find anything.

I really resent being told off for criticising this on the grounds that the consultation has been 'textbook'. Yes, the consultation has been very good but the point that has been made clearly by a number of people alteady is that nobody has had any chance before now to comment on the decision to change traffic flow on Hewit Rd.

it seems crazy to me to do something like this without any attempt to think about the impact on other ladder roads. As a Seymour resident my concern is that this trial will reveal problems with having four roads in a row heading east to west (surprise!) and the decision will be made to reverse traffic flow on Seymour so it moves west to east - meaning we will get exactly the same problems that Hewit has had for the last few years (which largely reflect some cars needing to exit the road and then in very limited space move so they can turn into St Ann's Rd).

And there is my dilemma - we all know how bad it has been on Hewit. I would love that to change. But, you know what, I don't want it on my road either, who would. i know that sounds selfish but it is precisely why you need to look at this holistically, taking account of the entire stretch of roads, and avoid prioritising one road or set of roads over another.

Selfish? Alison....

Beggar. Thy. Neighbour.

It stinks.

Ant, I'm assuming the 'direct access to the GLSG' comment is aimed at me. Please do build in to your theory that I've been almost a lone voice objecting to some of the GLSG decisions to the extent that I am no longer invited to their meetings.

As to the missing post, yes, it was taken down following a specific request I received unrelated to this issue.

It was Hugh but i you think understand its just friendly banter not criticism. You know i've nothing but admiration for all the work you do around here and not to mention bringing us the wonderful HoL.

I do wonder if this would have been better handled by being really open about the Hewit Rd change and having a post specifically about it in the "Latest posts by HoL" section. There are plenty of more minor stories that go there so ignoring something like this helps give it a negative air.

I don't know what i really think about the Hewit direction change, it will give a dramatic reduction in traffic on Hewit towards the level that the bollards gave the Gardens, and thats a positive thing at least for the Hewit Rd residents. But at the same time i can completely see why those on the nearby streets aren't happy about it or the lack of consultation. As much as we get frustrated that similar improvements aren't happening on our street maybe its better that these type of changes do at least happen in Harringay somewhere. A neighbourhood wide holistic approach would be great but it seems like thats really hard and not about to happen, so perhaps chipping away one street at a time is a worthwhile approach for now. What we want is to find more ways for these types of traffic reductions to happen all over the place not to try to prevent them happening anywhere. Thats one of the main reasons i'm interested in the play street thing in Harringay - so people see how good it is having no traffic on their street and so help motivate them to get it to happen more permanently.

I think you've hit one of the nails squarely on the head there. Ant. Chipping away at the problem is the ONLY way we'll have a chance of a Ladder-wide solution. For this reason, and to support the success of the regeneration scheme I hope people can look into the future and support the final plan in its entirety.

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