Haringey looter pics issued by Met

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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on September 8, 2011 at 10:30

John D thanks for the subtle correction .. appreciate it!

 

's a long time since English was my everyday language.. :o)

Permalink Reply by StephenBln on September 6, 2011 at 16:42

@Osbawn I give up .. you've got a habit of trying to connect unconnected issues..

 

I've no idea what you mean about violent offenders..and spice of life.. A rather silly reply I would have thought .. But let's hope that if your child ever does something wrong in the future.. no 2020s 'armchair Osbawn' starts balling about sentencing etc...

 

 

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on September 6, 2011 at 17:16

My point made .. thank you Osbawn

Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on September 5, 2011 at 22:46

Osbawn, can I suggest you re-read what I did actually post. Rather than criticise me for something I didn't write.

Being brought to court and convicted is not being "let off". You have a criminal record which could stop you getting a wide range of jobs.

Being brought to court and remanded in custody means you serve a short jail sentence even if you are later given a non-custodial sentence - or found not guilty. 

Treating everyone harshly does not even accord with the principles of old-fashioned retributive justice - "making the punishment fit the crime".  Even the Old Testament "eye-for-an-eye, tooth for a tooth" is about proportionality.

I've asked what happens to those imprisoned when they come out. That isn't a plea to let them off. It is a simple statement of fact about the problems stored up by a prison system which does not reform or rehabilitate.

Your profile says you are in your 30s. You tell us you have a two-year-old. I very much hope that in a dozen years time you are spared the pain of standing in a Court with an adolescent who you love very much, but who has kicked over the traces. I also hope that, should this happen, the court will balance outrage with compassion. And find a sentence which is "in the best interest of the child" - as the law stipulates.

But of course, you've noticed that the experts and opinion formers who condemned the "feral children" who rioted, are now discovering that rioters were more likely to be adults. So now the script changes to "feral underclass".

I make no claim to expertise on the various issues involved. One thing these riots have brought home to me is the depth of my ignorance. On 19 August I walked down Wood Green High Road for the first time since the riots. It was sunny and the sky was blue. Shop windows were fixed or under repair. Lots of people were out. Yet because the riots were very much on my mind, it was no longer "normal".  I had a peculiar feeling of being in a strange place. Very familar but somehow changed; a place where I couldn't really understand what was in front of my eyes.

Maybe this seems silly? In which case my next bit may sound sillier. I was in Wood Green collecting a new copy of Crime and Punishment from the Big Green Bookshop. Because I've also been thinking – well, hoping - that many of the people who rioted, stole, smashed, burned, threw stones, or just hung around having some sort of 'fun', are now having very serious second thoughts.

And not just about a knock-on-the-door by the police. But because they've seen the photos and video, and TV programmes. Or walked past the burned-out or demolished buildings. And so they know about the people who lost their homes or their businesses. And perhaps, about some of their neighbours who - terrified - had to grab what they could, and run because their street was threatened by fire. And about children and adults who are still having nightmares of flames and violence.

In other words, I'm hoping that many of those who took part in the riots are now feeling remorse. And, sickened by events, wish they could somehow make amends. Who may welcome - if not redemption as in Dostoyevsky's novel - then at least the opportunity to make some kind of restitution.

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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on September 6, 2011 at 16:28

I think, Osbawn, I can see why you've misinterpreted what I wrote. Especially as, in response to John McMullan, you've now explained your views about consistency and proportionality of sentences. 

But to be completely clear, I've made no general sweeping: "assertion whether deliberate or not, ... that those who deserve prison shouldn't be gaoled because of the social problems they will face/cause when they get out".

You might want to keep an eye on the Guardian's ambitious and ongoing piece of research with the London School of Economics, called Reading The Riots, to see how far our courts match your own expectations of how they should act. Here's a preliminary indication.

In the meantime, I do want the courts - on a case by case basis - to continue considering the crime, its victims, and punishment the offender deserves; and also the likely impact on the offender and the best way to prevent them reoffending.

I didn't hear Kenneth Clarke's comments - referred to by John McMullan. (Anyone got a link?) But I did read his article.

It seems to have prompted a thoughtful response from Ian Duncan Smith who says he wants us to be: "the nation of the second chance" and that he wants "troublemakers to see there was an alternative to criminal activity."

I'm interested to read that you worked with prisoner rehabilitation charities and in the "policing and justice sectors". Perhaps you could tell us a bit about your own experience and how you would tackle these questions in relation to the riots and comments by Clarke and Duncan Smith.

At the best of times, your short question inviting my own views would need a very long answer. But - as I've said on HoL - now is the time for all of us to try setting aside our certainties and confident opinions. Instead, we can do some listening, learning and serious reflecting on what has and hasn't worked before; while looking for new ideas.

As prison reform/rehabilitation seem a particular concern of yours, you've probably seen this helpful article by Geoff Dobson on the Prison Reform Trust website. People who haven't read it may be interested in the comments about victims and restorative justice in the youth justice system.

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