Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Doing it for Ourselves
Last weekend Malcolm used this site to generate a great example of citizens doing it for themselves.
Hugely topical as it happens. Co-production - residents working alongside public services providers to deliver public services - is generating rapidly increasing levels of interest amongst politicians and public service providers. Add tough financial times to the mix and the interest becomes a need.
If you fancy catching up on some of the thinking around this, here's a New Economics Foundation publication (pdf) all about it and another from The Young Foundation (pdf).
Good thing?
A big question for me is ensuring that everyone has the capacity to participate on equal terms. As things stand that'll take some work.
Hugely topical as it happens. Co-production - residents working alongside public services providers to deliver public services - is generating rapidly increasing levels of interest amongst politicians and public service providers. Add tough financial times to the mix and the interest becomes a need.
If you fancy catching up on some of the thinking around this, here's a New Economics Foundation publication (pdf) all about it and another from The Young Foundation (pdf).
Good thing?
A big question for me is ensuring that everyone has the capacity to participate on equal terms. As things stand that'll take some work.
Tags for Forum Posts: Wightman Road, co-production
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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At least a half dozen of the men were recruited in the pub on the Friday night beforehand when the idea was first mooted. When there was the snowfall before Christmas I tried to guilt people into clearing their bit of the passage in this post here.
I think it would be instructive to look at where Malcolm was successful and I was not. I hate to admit it but I think the difference is effort put into organising, not HoL which was common in both instances.
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Permalink Reply by Old-Age-Emporium(OAE) on
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I did wonder about that, John, as you seemed to be the prime and onlie begetter of the idea at the time. Maybe the Passage focus had something to do with Malcolm's challenge growing legs and backbone - a bit ironic as you're the Passage's stoutest champion.
Or maybe the timing. HOL activity runs down around the festive days till by 23-26th it's like the Mary Celeste. (Folks must show they've something more enjoyable to do than post on HOLly.) Two weeks later there's a sudden need to slough off those extra sluggish kilos and the Passage's much cheaper than Fitness First. (Loud cries of 'cynical old f...er rent the January air.)
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Permalink Reply by Alison P on
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Don't you think it was partly down to timing? Perhaps Malcolm's was more successful because the snow had been around for quite a while and was clearly not going anywhere - and nor was the council going to do anything either. Just a thought ...
Also, from my point of view, saying "I'll be there at such and such a time" made it become something I was willing to do rather than just nodding at the computer screen but not doing anything.
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Permalink Reply by Hugh on
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Yup. That's what I was trying to say. John was entreating people; Malcolm organised us.
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You're right John. It's not a single factor that'll make things succeed or fail. A tool like HoL will never organise on its own. A person will find it tough to organise things quickly across a big unconnected group without a good tool. Add a good tool to an effective organiser and then you're talking.
Reading your post John, my take is that you weren't seeking to organise folks to work together. You were entreating people to be good neighbours. A quite different call to action to the one Malcolm made. Might that explain the difference in result?
But for me that's not the main point here for me. What are your thoughts on co-production in general?
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Well in this case it required a leader. Malcolm did a great job in the pub of selling it to a core group of dads and then got onto HoL and the mysterious "Adam's-email-list" to follow up.
I have always looked for how this can work with a minimum of effort, often chastising you and Liz for working too hard on it. I would like a bit of the world to belong to the meek and not just the go-getter alpha types. For that to happen we need to do without you/Liz/Malcolm etc but I honestly think it won't work. There's a reason some of us are go-getters and some of us are sheep and it's not because the go-getters deserve all the money. It seems HoL cannot redistribute power much better than a government can redistribute wealth.
You do a lot of work "posting" things for people that I personally think they should do themselves. Often some of the more "powerful" people in our borough. Ms Canver is a case and point. You have to wonder, would HoL be the success it is without you doing that? Are we truly leaderless? If not, do we do anything useful without one?
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I think we're peas from the same pod, John. But remember that guy out east somewhere who used to say damned daft things like: 'Blessed are the meek for they shall possess the land.' Just look at the alpha (or is it aleph) types who've grabbed all the land he was talking about and are religiously holding on to it. It doesn't work, I fear.
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Permalink Reply by Malcolm on
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This is a really interesting conversation and question - why does one post/call to arms achieve something and a similar one at a different time not?
There's some theories around (pace Clay Shirky):
* Hold out a promise of what is going to be achieved ('clear the passage').
* Make sure it's small enough to feel achievable, but big enough to be interesting (so 'clear all the ladder roads' mightn't have worked)
* Find initial supporters - in this case down the pub
* Quick wins
* Communication and visible results
* Scratch people's itches
In the open source world (community written software) the rule of thumb is to release something that does something minimally interesting, but that has lots of rough edges so people can quickly find something that they can join in and work on. If you release something that does nothing people won't start using it. If it's too complex/finished then it's not easy to get involved.
And then there's just luck and timing :)
I honestly don't think it's because I'm an "alpha" or "go-getter" type - those that know me are probably laughing at the idea. In fact your passion on the passage is what got me going on this one. We're all passionate about something, and in many cases all it takes is to shift mindset from "wouldn't it be good if.." to "let's all do..."
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One interesting side-point on tools - HoL is great, but we could have done without it in the case of the passage clearance. For example in Portsmouth a guy just put leaflets through neighbours' letterboxes - something that would (arguably) have worked even better than HoL.
What HoL (and other social sites) enable are for latent groups to crystallise (e.g stay at home dads, all people who like Buffy the Vampire Slayer). Popping leaflets through doors wouldn't work in those cases since the density of interest is so low. They also make the cost/effort to form the group much lower. A couple of posts on HoL is much easier than printing and delivering hundreds of leaflets.
The net result? With tools like HoL more groups can form for more purposes than ever before. Since the participants are motivated by something other than money in nearly all cases, expect to see far more things created/done by self-organised groups that previously either wouldn't have happened or would have required a central co-ordinating point.
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Permalink Reply by matt on
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Co-production - residents working alongside public services providers to deliver public services
Free labour for tough financial times . In richer financial times they become paid jobs. That's the cynical version.
Of course many countries including this one have a rich tradition of volunteering and many of our institutions rely on it; Coastguard, Mountain Rescue, school governors etc. Expanding this tradition into areas where people have been paid to do the work maybe taking things a little too far. But like everything it's open to debate. Depends what the political parties have in mind. Lets remember though, people can't live on zero wages or pitiful pensions.
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Malcolm/Snow Czar/Ice Fairy... what do you think?
I think Alison is right but even then she doesn't know that you went to the effort of sourcing the salt we used (admittedly I had to go and pick it up because your car was snowed in) and badgering Adam to send a follow up email to his local Dad's list.
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