Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Democratic involvement and representation
I'VE LONG been of the view that there are wise, decent, sensible individuals in all the major parties. The body politic suffers from an electoral system that does not allow this truth to manifest itself for the benefit of the Borough or country as a whole. As a case in point, the Conservatives have a significant vote in our Borough, but until recently had not a single representative on the Council.
The recent exception was an accident and the individual involved is likely to lose his seat come the next election (notwithstanding the likely swing nationally to the Conservatives) because in the previous election he was voted in as a representative of a different party.
Locally at least, the Conservative party is severely disadvantaged by the first-past-the-post system and yet that party does not support a system of proportional representation.
Such a system is a more accurate reflection of the will of the people and avoids the wild swings of the pendulum that the long-term future of the country suffers from. The pendulum swings too far one way and then there is the over-correction.
All players are obliged to work with the FPTP system. The exaggerated effect of the pendulum also tends to reflect the general feeling that either one or other class is in power. Is this mature politics?
The recent exception was an accident and the individual involved is likely to lose his seat come the next election (notwithstanding the likely swing nationally to the Conservatives) because in the previous election he was voted in as a representative of a different party.
Locally at least, the Conservative party is severely disadvantaged by the first-past-the-post system and yet that party does not support a system of proportional representation.
Such a system is a more accurate reflection of the will of the people and avoids the wild swings of the pendulum that the long-term future of the country suffers from. The pendulum swings too far one way and then there is the over-correction.
All players are obliged to work with the FPTP system. The exaggerated effect of the pendulum also tends to reflect the general feeling that either one or other class is in power. Is this mature politics?
Tags for Forum Posts: Democracy, First-past-the-post, PR
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Justin Hinchcliffe on
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"Locally at least, the Conservative party is severely disadvantaged by the first-past-the-post system and yet that party does not support a system of proportional representation " - doesn't that prove we're NOT opportunists?
I wouldn't say Cllr. Dobbie is in danger of losing. He's a very hard-working and popular representative. Many people will vote for him as a neighbour and campaigner.
Personally, I'm relaxed about PR at local elections. I'm not a 'never' person. That said, I think I think there are dangers with PR. Always being held hostage by the Lib Dems and other minor parties. More extremists like the BNP and Respect. Do we really want that in the name of 'democracy'? Discuss...
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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You get the democracy you deserve. I don't think the BNP would make big inroads, they always get the same number of hard core voters and just get representation when the main stream parties screw up and don't get their vote out.
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They would never have got two MEPS and a London Assembly Member, John, without PR.
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Your reasoning is too simple. PR did not cause them to get that representation. Labour's poor turnout did.
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So if the big parties can't get their vote out (for whatever reason) then the nasty nut jobs get in. Can we afford to take that risk? And if, and when,they do get in can we complain?
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Permalink Reply by Birdy_Too on
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We can't call it democratic when we don't like whom people vote for and praise the wonders of democracy when all we get is stale middle of the road options like the main three. People are sick of the seesaw political system in this country, they want to vote with their convictions and be truly represented. If I was given the option of two or three courses in a restaurant I would walk out that is not choice.
If the main parties gave us some choice instead of metamorphosising
in the middle people wouldn't feel the need to vote for such fringe parties. Labour disowned its traditional core voting supporters hence the increase in the Socialists and Respect and in some regards the BNP. The Tories disowned their traditional voters hence the swing to the BNP and BNP Light (UKIP).
PR is truly democratic even if the filth at the opposite end of your belief gauge are given seats - that's what it is all about, don’t you politicians get it? The biggest advert for not voting for the BNP is seeing their democratically elected members making a hash of everything, as they have and will continue to do.
80% of the seats in this country are safe, like this one so there’s no choice for people. The only reason the main two don’t want PR because they now they will lose out. You have PR in local, European and even in NI national elections, what are you scared of?
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And we have BNP member elected under those systems. You want them to get into Westminster, too?
I must take issue with you on two things:
1. Conservative Voters when in a 'huff' go either to the LDs or UKIP (depending on their 'wings' of the party). Rarely, and thankfully, to the BNP - 80% of the BNP's vote comes from Labour (and even a few Lib Dems, shock horror!)
2. I strongly disagree that all the parties are the same. What evidence to you have for this?
J.
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Permalink Reply by StephenBln on
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Rarely, and thankfully, to the BNP - 80% of the BNP's vote comes from Labour (and even a few Lib Dems, shock horror!)
Can you prove this statement?
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Permalink Reply by Alison P on
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I'd not go so far as saying that all parties are the same, but I think it is fairly clear that there has been a huge convergence between Labour and the Conservatives over the last few years, mainly because of a shift to the centre in Labour policy.
If you want evidence, there is a project that's been going on for a number of years which basically maps parties' stances across Europe on a range of things, based on their election manifestos. For the UK its very clear that the gulfs that were there in the 1980s narrowed hugely in the late 1990s and have remained narrow since.
This does matter, not least because the perception that there isn't much difference between the parties turns a lot of people off politics, and makes them think there isn't really much at stake when they vote.
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on
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I agree Alison. There seems to be general climate the politics is about management. Morality, ethics and principles seem to have been lost along the way.
One of the features of latter-day elections, especially local-government elections, is low turn-out of voters. This really ought to concern all those with a serious interest in politics and political representation. Disaffection with politics is high.
What is at stake when people vote?
When you're in a "safe" seat, your vote doesn't make much difference one way or the other. When you live in a "marginal" your vote is worth a great deal more. One of the main benefits of PR is that all votes are equal. This is in the spirit of One person One vote – the votes should be of equal value. This might make people less cynical about politics and be inclusive.
The price of this real democracy is having a voice or platform for small and sometimes extremist parties. But much as some might wish to see them shut out of the political process altogether, is it not actually fair that smaller parties have a say, but only in proportion to their support?
I beleive the benefits, in avoiding wild swings in policy – backwards and forwards, would be worth it for the sake of the future of the country. -
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"And we have BNP member elected under those systems. You want them to get into Westminster, too?" - If that is what people elect, then yes, that's democracy.
Over the past fifteen years the Tories have gone more to the centre from the right and Labour have left their socialist ideals and moved to the centre too, bringing many of their policies indistinguishable.
As the Tories has moved more to the centre this has alienated some right wingers, they have then moved to UKIP or BNP. A Labour government also results in greater far right support, something that has happened since the fifties. This a fact, check election history or read this
The reason why the BNP has succeeded recently is down to both main parties leaving their traditional place on the political spectrum and becoming so distant from teh electorate. It's boring but "they just don't get it"
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The BNP isn't a right wing party - they're socialists
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