Alexandra Palace would like to invite you to visit an exhibition on the Heritage Lottery Fund project at Alexandra Palace

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Robert Pike on October 11, 2014 at 12:13

Okay. Thanks. Will try an catch it tomorrow then.

Your description makes me think of the Hitchhikers Guide:

"But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."

"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."

"But the plans were on display ..."

"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."

"That's the display department."

"With a flashlight."

"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."

"So had the stairs."

"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"

"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."

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Permalink Reply by Robert Pike on October 11, 2014 at 10:17

From your posting I am unclear about what you would do instead. Would you conserve the the whole floor as it is? Would that still suit the proposed uses? 

Strikes me that you conserve this element and preserve that historic fabric, because I agree once something is gone it is gone for good. Instead you stitch in and around the new multi media aspects - surely achievable in this day and age, and creating an evocative display of the evolution of TV technology. 

I don't have a section of the building to hand and so purely speculating...BUT...could this wing be linked to the undercroft below, and in doing so the larger community/ education uses proposed could  be sited there and then opened up to the frontage so that passers by could see in? What is unimaginative from the description I read on the website is that this is proposed for restaurants and cafes. The thing is eatery's can't solve everything but it helps, however for all the day I think you need more than that to activate a space - and I am not just talking about opening a Cath Kidston.

Sensitive conservation along with modern intervention has been achieved well elsewhere - so yest here we shouldn't be short changed on imagination!

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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on October 12, 2014 at 7:08

Robert, the starting point appears for the AP east side fix-up has been the theatre in the north east wing. This would receive the lion's share of lottery money. The careful attention continues down the east side, with the grand ice rink entrance.

However, in the south-east wing – the site of the pioneering, 1936 BBC studios – roughly half-way along, the cash runs out. This is all too-obvious. If insufficient care, thought and attention has gone into this area, then in that wing, we are at risk of a half-baked result, for what is arguably the most important part of the palace. It would be unfair to describe the BBC Studio wing proposals as an afterthought, but IMO, more thought needs to go in to them.

About half of the first floor area is covered by the heritage lottery bid, but money would be lavished on that half, to create a show for paying visitors. The history would be packaged and displayed by many modern multi-media displays. This may or may not be the right approach for the contents, but what is currently proposed would:

• gut the middle of the studio wing
• ignore large areas on the northern side
• not include the grand Victorian staircase
• lose John Logie Baird's small Spotlight Studio
• preclude a restoration of the key part of Baird's 1936 Studio
• favour style and presentation over conservation and the the outline of the studios

... to name the main question marks.

After spending some £2.5 million pounds on design work, what has been come up so far in respect of the South East wing is disappointing.

I much want to see this opened to the public. However I believe visitors would expect to see more of the original studio outline to remain, rather than to see a smart, generic, standard piece of modern interior design, forced into a piece of history:

History, of importance to the world, and not merely residents in one Council Borough (I've attached my UN World Heritage Proposal. It was formally adopted by our Trust's Board two and a half years ago, but now there is no further mention of it).

Attachments:

• 1–AP Heritage Proposal v.10A.pdf, 792 KB

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Permalink Reply by Julie - WPRNW on October 12, 2014 at 9:06

To qualify, I received this as an email, I havent personal affiliation so cant comment.

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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on October 12, 2014 at 11:30

Julie,

Thanks for your post which I understand is a re-post of Claire Pemberton's message. Claire is a fellow antipodean and is perfectly charming, even though she comes from the other side of the creek!

I appreciate that you don't have a personal affiliation, however you are entitled to comment: you can comment. 

I assume that as you are a member of WPRNW, you live in Woodlands Park Road. Therefore you will have a particular legal status of which you may be unaware, and the council will be in no hurry to confirm this or to draw this to your attention. Woodlands Park Road is in north London and therefore, you are a beneficiary of a charitable trust, normally abbreviated to Alexandra Palace or even just Ally Pally. More than one Act of Parliament deals with this status.

It became a charitable trust in part because of the various challenges down the decades.

There has in the past been misleading on the legal status. Even in connection with the current display, a visitor told me that they were told by an assistant, that the council owns Alexandra Palace. This is untrue.

Though the council frequently behaves as though they own it: they do not own it. The council is Trustee of our Charitable Trust.

If you wish, you should feel free to comment as a beneficiary of our Trust.

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Permalink Reply by Lynne on October 12, 2014 at 10:45

I ve just seen this discussion, and encourage all to go today to Wood Green Shopping Mall to see the exhibition, seems to be the last chance to have your say. Sadly this cannot be done online. Overall the exhibition deserves support for the restoration of the Victorian Theatre, SE Wing and Studio A (the Marconi/EMI studio) and Duncan Wilson CEO should be applauded. Most visitors however don't know the background. It seems members of Save Ally Pally who have intimate historic knowledge of the Palace, a unique place, have not been involved in these plans.

Has this proposal captured the essence, the feel, the compelling story, the unique that is Alexandra Palace, worthy of a Unesco World Heritage plaque? Stop people in the street, and most would say that Alexandra Palace is known as the birth place of Television and The Scot, John Logie Baird as the inventor. The exceptional year that was 1936 for the studios (also the year of the Berlin Olympics), the year of the mad competition of 2 systems, 2 unstable and perilous systems that go on to give us TV and Telecine, what it felt like at that moment, a personal experience of the studios for visitors of all ages and backgrounds to 'get it', AND encourage others to come.

Unfortunately the current proposal doesn't capture the essence or the feel of that moment.

The studios should be conserved as they were, the footprint preserved, so important parts like Studio B (Logie Baird Studio), the in between small rooms including the Spotlight Studio and it's alcove, the hidden Victorian staircase be restored.The climatically controlled rooms with exhibits (I can see this part touring at museums like V&A) that is 'the show' can be located elsewhere.

It's a golden opportunity to tell the story, not to be lost, and I hope it to be worthy of a 5 star Tripadvisor review from an EU/US/Chinese/African/Indian/Asian/Japanese (sorry if I ve missed anyone out) tourist. We have to remember that people are leaving Central London to see this.

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Permalink Reply by Finsbury Park Ranger on October 12, 2014 at 15:44

I went today, It was interesting to hear that Southgate may have stolen the terminus train location from Ally Pally and with it a fair ammount of extra funding. Also whilst Boris got personally involved in Chrystal palace regen he has shied away from supporting the Ally Pally regeneration scheme in person, causing a a much harder uphill battle allegedly.

It seems the current plans are all going to go ahead though and only a major cock up would cause the next round of funding to be pulled.

I got the idea that nothing was really up for discussion though, I think it was just a PR exercise. No ideas or feedback were being written down or recorded, the clipboards seemed to be for show.

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Permalink Reply by Lynne on October 13, 2014 at 13:47

Hi Finsbury Park Ranger, I too went yesterday to Wood Green Shopping Mall 1st floor; I also recognise several of your comments. Here's a photo I took of yesterday's exhibition, seven display boards, down from about 20 boards when it was up by the Ice Rink last weekend. 

 

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on October 14, 2014 at 7:44

I got the idea that nothing was really up for discussion though, I think it was just a PR exercise. No ideas or feedback were being written down or recorded, the clipboards seemed to be for show.

Interesting observation, FPR.

The Consultation that's not a Consultation!

I went to check the extent of the display on Sunday. I had a chat with the attendant and amongst other matters, I put to her a direct question:

Is this a Consultation?

Whether or not the employee of our Trust understood the legal meaning and implications of (a public) "consultation", I was given a clear direct answer:

No, it is not a consultation it is an Exhibition. 

Which is interesting because, just as up at the ice-rink the weekend before last, there were forms available to fill in. As others have observed, most of that form sought information about the respondent for (obvious) marketing purposes. However, a few square inches were reserved for comments about the design.

Earlier, on the form available in our libraries, the following terms were deployed as part of the drive to push this through:

• "Have your say"
• "Please fill in this questionnaire to help shape the Heritage Lottery Fund Project"
• "Please provide further comments on what you would like to see in the Eastern Wing of Alexandra Palace".

I retain a copy.

Sadly, our council so often fails to learn lessons. I'm not sure that the council understands the requirements of a lawful consultation.

I should add that I was a small part of the action in the High Court on 7 October 2007, about the sale of Ally Pally by the Council, to a former slum-lord. The case was brought by the Save Ally Pally group, against a supine Charity Commission. The case and Judgement (to quash the sale) turned on the quality of the Consultation.

The administrative division of the High Court deals with the process leading up to a decision. I can promise you that those display boards erected by management in the Palm Court, to promote the earlier sale attempt, came up for discussion in front of the Judge.

Clive Carter

Councillor

Haringey

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Permalink Reply by Straw Cat on October 16, 2014 at 12:36

I’d always been led to believe that HLF projects had to be (a) not-for-profit, i.e. charities, and not public money subsidies to commercial ventures; (b) had to demonstrate support from interested community organisations, via consultations with them.

 

The present proposals, however, have been, as has been said earlier in this thread, produced as a done deal, by the secret AP regeneration working group.

 

What is becoming obvious is that the attempt to flog the AP a few years ago was a bit like the MIPIM “regeneration” deals discussed elsewhere on HoL – an attempt to let a private developer grab a huge chunk of a community asset, on the pretext that part of it after regeneration will be “affordable” – a weasel word for small bits offered at  20% cheaper than the market.

When the charity commission was forced to disclose the lease to Firoka, it showed  that the studios would be offered to a charity - at a market rent - in other words effectively unaffordable.

Although this was defeated by SAP in the High Court, the suspicion remains that the “regeneration” is an attempt to privatize a public asset except for “affordable” bits, with  bits open to the public but only via expensive entrance tickets, and the current exhibition is a mere PR exercise. But I’d welcome AP people posting here proving me wrong.

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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on October 16, 2014 at 14:24

had to demonstrate support from interested community organisations, via consultations with them.

I'm not alone in keeping an eye on this Consultation Exhibition, Straw Cat.

Below is a close-up photo taken by an associate, during the period when the boards were on display up by the ice rink. The images used were excellent (apart from other excellent and informative images that that did not appear).

However, the text on the all (20?) the boards was scrunched-up, making it hard to read. I'm more than averagely interested in the content, but I found them all hard to read:

(click to expand)

I doubt that the tight spacing was done deliberately to frustrate reading. I think more likely it was just carelessness or ignorance. However this exhibition is part of the wider pitch to the public, involving the way in which many millions of pounds of Heritage Lottery Fund money is to be spent.

I contacted the Plain English Campaign, by email and phone. They were highly helpful and I'd encourage anyone with queries to get in touch with them. I sent them separate photos from two other people (the first fuzzy, the second is above).

I have permission from PEC Manager Tony Maher to quote their responses:

=================================================

Dear Clive

Thank you for your email.

Can you send me one or two photographs and I will let you know what I think of them.

We normally advise people to use a sans-serif typeface if possible. There are many good ones that are readily available so there is no reason to use a serif typeface or a heavily stylized one. If the letters are touching, something has gone badly wrong with the design. They should not be kerned to the point they touch and the leading should be sufficient to allow the ascenders and descenders to clear each other as well.

It is difficult to give advice without seeing the photographs but some kerning of letters is usual in modern typefaces.

Good design goes hand-in-hand with clear text to improve readability. So, I have to agree that something is amiss.

If they have a Crystal Mark on them, can you let me know the number as this will help me track them down.

If you want a quick chat, feel free to give me a call.

All the best

Tony Maher

Manager

Phone: 01663 744409

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…

I have seen this effect when the typesize has been increased but not the line length or the leading. If this is the case, it is immediately obvious to any decent designer that something is wrong. It would certainly fail to pass our assessment on this point alone.

I have checked on our jobs list and I cannot find any document of this type belonging to Haringey Council. So, I would be very interested to know how it has been tested against our guidelines and ‘passed’.

With posters on walls, it is really hard to give an indication of which typesize is best. You have to know how far the posters are from people, the size of the poster and so on. For normal leaflets, brochures and so on, we normally recommend 12 point type on 13 point leading but this can be as little as 10 on 11, depending on the typeface. Posters normally have to be a lot larger.

If the space is limited, I normally advise people to aim for the largest type they can while keeping the line length to about 65 characters. The leading should always be greater than typesize and the letters should not be kerned into each other.

I have attached a basic guide below you may wish to read and possibly point out to people.

 

http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/files/designguide.pdf

 

I hope this helps for now.

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…

 This isn’t just the odd couple of letters that are too close together so you are right, the tracking is far too tight; to the point where it is very difficult to read.

I do find this odd as there is a lot of white space available at the bottom of the boards so there is really no need to track it so tightly. I have seen this done when space has been limited, in order to fit in a larger type size. But, there is no reason to do this here. If they were worried that people couldn’t read the bottom of the boards, they could have just put them up a bit higher.

The exhibition boards are close to the viewing area so there is no need to use a huge type size anyway.

The ascenders and descenders just about clear each other so the leading is fine.

All in all, just one poor design choice (tracking too tight). It is a pity really as the rest of it isn’t too bad at all. Not quite plain English but a good choice of typeface, and ranged left with good use of bulleted lists.

Quite how the designer missed this point is beyond me as it makes my eyes hurt trying to read it.

…

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…

 Not quite as bad as the earlier ‘fuzzy’ version but still too tight. Some of the letter combinations touch which isn’t good. And, it still makes my eyes hurt when I read it.

From this board it is obvious why they have done it. There is no free white space on this particular board so the tracking has been tightened up to fit all the text in (while retaining the typesize). This would be easier to read if they had simply dropped a couple of point sizes instead. I don’t know of a typeface with tracking deliberately this tight but it makes no difference if the designer deliberately closed the letters up or if they selected and tightly-tracked typeface; it simply isn’t easy to read.

Like I said earlier, this is a pity really as the rest of the text and the design elements are not bad at all.

As for the text being written up to Crystal Mark standard – it isn’t.

There is a small programme on our website called ‘drivel defence’. Like all programmes of this type, it will give you some helpful suggestions on how to improve and simplify the text. It will not edit the document up to Crystal Mark standard. I can’t think of anything else that this assistant could mean. We certainly have not edited it.

I hope this helps.

All the best

Tony

 

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Why go to this extent to investigate over what most would regard as a small detail?

Because one of our Trust's employees, manning the stand, claimed to me that the text on the display boards had been checked against the Crystal Mark test, and "had passed". This was witnessed by another Councillor and a local resident after all three of us pointed out the scrunched-up text.

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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on October 16, 2014 at 15:43

As you know, Clive, one of my regrets as a Haringey councillor was making pitifully small progress in getting the Council to improve reports and other published material; and write in English instead of its native Obfuscandian.  So council staff still "endeavour"  to do something instead of "try".   Equipment "would benefit from replacement".  It never just "needs replacing". (Or perhaps "repair".)

But I didn't feel too bad after coming across what Chrissie Maher - the founder of the Plain English Campaign - wrote in 1971. "Why isn’t the public given a chance to understand public information?" She answered: "To keep them in the dark.’ ‘To stop them claiming what is rightfully theirs." ...  "To stop them interfering in things they wouldn’t understand". (From "Born To Crusade".)

I'm glad to see you're taking up this issue.

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