Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Africans in Chestnuts Park
What's going on tonight? Repetitive West African chanting for over an hour.
Is it a festival or world record attempt?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Martin (Woodside)
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I'll answer for myself Alan, although taking into account an acceptance of diversity I can understand why people don't want to hear a constant, repetitive noise in the short annual interlude that we can sit in our gardens and have the windows open. My comments on The Observer and a play on words were a bit of humour Alan, which I guess that you simply didn't like, didn't want to like, or didn't get.
As for the fanciful theories, they are based on my extended visits to South Africa and Zimbabwe on so many occasions I have lost count. This was not in white suburbs, but the bars, beer-halls, town backstreets, shebeens, villages, smallholding farms and tin-shacks of 'coloured' and black people. I've even stood three feet away from Robert Mugabe. I've seen the huge open gatherings of church groups, including the almost biblical sight of the apostolic gatherings on the hills. I can say with some confidence Alan, that I am versed enough in African culture with enough qualification to comment.
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Permalink Reply by Clive Carter
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KRANKBOTHER, "top of the bill"
I think we are drifting a tad from the topic of this thread which in essence, is a grumble about noise from a park.
At the time and date mentioned, I heard continuous, tedious noise that some might describe as music. I could not swear that it was coming from Finsbury Park but I have no reason to believe otherwise. The local council website is my best evidence for the source, i.e. one of their public park customers (Krankbrother):
Summer Fun continues with Krankbrother event in Finsbury Park
This Local Authority helps to advertise the entertainment that they also Licence, so I've reproduced and highlighted their promotional material:
Honey Dijon and CamelPhat are at the top of the bill on Saturday (9 August) and Sunday (10 August) …
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton
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Hello again, Martin Woodside. Still speculating without a scrap of evidence?
Or should I perhaps assume that your latest post - you call it your "answer" - is another failed attempt at humour? Like your dismal "joke" about The Observer Sunday newspaper.
Did you actually see or hear the source of the noise discussed? If so please tell us more.
If not, what on earth has your standing "three feet from Robert Mugabe" on one of your countless, varied and enviable experiences in South Africa and Zimbabwe, have to do with a persistent noise coming from one of two parks in Haringey? Are you seriously claiming that qualifies you as "well versed enough" to comment on an event about which nobody has yet provided any further solid information whatsover.
Instead you offer a new speculation based on your memories - perhaps long ago? Personal recollections - of : "huge open gatherings of church groups, including the almost biblical sight of the apostolic gatherings on the hills".
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Permalink Reply by Brian Mahoney
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Hello Alan.
I do apologise but I can't see the point you are making?
Are you saying I didn't hear repetitive African chanting? Surely, the fact that I and the other people on this thread have said that we heard it and are interested to find out what it was all about is sufficient evidence of the event having happened? Why would several unconnected people make up such a story? What would we gain in doing so?
It was definitely African singing although I think it was more West African than Southern African. I've spent time in West Africa as well as South Africa and prior to that in Rhodesia as a school boy.
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Thanks for replying, Brian Mahoney. It's too late to reply now but I'll try to make time tomorrow. Maybe someone else will also add a fresh, original and factual piece or two to solve this odd puzzle?
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Hmm... So far nothing fresh, original and factual. Only Martin Woodside repeating that he was right in his first post on this thread.
One person posting here has a plausible alternative theory. But that may be in error. And of course a theory can only be tested if one is prepared to consider that one is wrong. So is anyone reading this thread who may have some helpful new facts?
For instance, anyone who on Sunday 10th August was in or near either (A) Chestnuts Park or (B) Finsbury Park (possibly near the southeast corner) who saw or heard something which might have caused what one person described as "a din" ; and another as": "West African chanting" . Another as "continuous, tedious noise that some might describe as music". Subsequent speculations have included: "definitely African singing although I think it was more West African than Southern African." Tossed into this somewhat sagging soufle we also have: ". . . "church groups, including the almost biblical sight of the apostolic gatherings on the hills."Is there someone who owns one of these new fangled smart-phone thingies and had the initiatve to take it out and record some noisy din on 10th August. Or even take a few photos of the din-makers.
To be fair I should mention Clive Carter who provided the alternative theory on this thread. Which does require an open mind to explore. As it doesn't lead to any part of West or South Africa.
I am sad that some people seem unaware of the amazing Malian musicians whose beautiful comlex melodic playing and singing I once loved. Tedious it was not.
Finally perhaps I should make it clear that my own connections with Africa (Egypt) are extremely distant and very tenuous. Also I was once in Gibralter and a Catalan publisher I once stayed with said that Africa began at the Pyrennees.
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Will you be providing a translation Alan?
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Brian Mahoney? Surely you're still not pretending that you don't see the point I make!
You and others on this thread are clearly articulate and experienced people who are well able to frame useful questions to solve the problem we are discussing. Namely: Who or what was the cause of the noise nuisance from a park on 10th August?Or at least it would be if Iris Allan's initial post didn't start by assuming the answer: "West Africans chanting". Every subsequent post (apart from me and Clive Carter) adopted an African framing. with irrelevant variations and references to different parts of Africa and comical references to your supposed expertise in African culture.
Noise nuisance in a park? Search for some Africans, is a weird response.I hope you do realise that if somebody complains about a helluva loud unpleasant noise (to them) from an event in a Haringey Park what's needed are Council officers with machines to measure sound levels; and powers of enforcement. And not people announcing: "Let me through I'm a former colonial expat."
Do please suspend your obsession with Africa. Instead read what Clive Carter posted and check the links he suggests. Clive has spoon-fed you his proposed solution to this puzzle.
Which, by the way, I do accept is not conclusive. But he does have a habit of working hard and patiently to get his facts right.
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Underlying the park noise problem is the council's 10-year Major Events policy, instituted under the leadership of Clare Kober and carried on by (LGO-disgraced-) leader Joseph Ejiofor and his successor, Peray Ahmet.
Yes, council Officers have machines to measure noise levels and have powers of enforcement.
In normal circumstances, they may be relied upon to be objective.
But when their employer—Haringey Council—has a direct pecuniary interest as landlord in the regular commercial exploitation of Finsbury Park, no council employee can be seen as independent.
Environmental Officers must well know that the Major Events policy is a long-standing policy of the Ruling Council Group.
They are likely to know or to expect, that current Council Leader Peray Ahmet is keen on this exploitation. She stood alongside the Festival Republic promoter for a council PR photograph, wilfully to demonstrate her support for this Licensable activity.
The Licensing Authority (Haringey Council) is surely aware of their employer's support for the Ruling Group's Major Events policy.
The Licensing Committee always has a majority of Labour members who know full well of their Group's established parks policy. They do not declare this interest, which though not personal, is a council pecuniary interest. Therefore, the Committee has not taken seriously residents' concerns about noise and a host of other factors.
The council has a chronic inability to recognise conflicts-of-interest, which is one of the reasons for poor decisions and the level of their performance.
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Alan Stanton?
These posts of yours are becoming increasingly bizarre.
I fail to see the problem with somebody (or in this case somebodies) asking what the repetitive music flowing into their gardens is all about. Why does it concern you that it is described as sounding African? And why is there a problem with people narrowing down the description to West Africa?
Now I'm sure you're aware as an erudite and educated man yourself that Africa is a massively diverse continent with innumerable cultures and music styles so why not make the distinction between West African music, with its unique rhythms and instruments, and say North African music from the souks or even Afrikaaner folk music to aid the description?
What is the problem with me and others referring to our experiences in Africa in order to describe the type of music? No one is claiming to be an expert. I couldn't tell you the difference between Senegalese or Malian beats but most people will recognise that they have more in common than those sounds emanating from the other side of the continent.
I've noticed from some of your previous contributions to this site that you might have Marxist leanings and you have referred to 'framing' a couple of times in this thread.
Could it be that you have seen an entirely normal question through the lens of Marxist theory and been triggered by a reference to Africa and our colonial history there? If so, might I suggest that Marxist interpretations of African history and politics are rarely useful particularly for people in Africa. I would offer the example of Rhodesia before Marxism and Zimbabwe afterwards and I'm sure that given the vintage of your profile photo you will be aware of many other pertinent examples from last century.
I also couldn't help but notice that you've posted at 2am on a Monday morning. Now you might be an insomniac or you might be abroad enjoying a summer holiday but please be assured that this is not the biggest issue in the world and that there is no need to ensure every possible interpretation, regardless of how bizarre, is considered. I will get over it and do note Clive's entirely plausible explanation that the repetitive African style music was probably part of a festival which is all I think anyone ever wondered.
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I think you're all a bit nuts but you've rekindled a passing teenage interest.
I used to like listening to Angelique Kidjo, Lucky Dube, Johnny Klegg and Ladysmith Black Mombasa (from thier collaboration with Paul Simon) and will now do some exploring.
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Brian Mahoney I hope I'm right in assuming you're clever enough to know that half what you post on this thread contradicts the other 50%. Also that you can easily work out why Clive Carter's theory is more likely to fit the facts than blaming some mysterious West Africans in Chestnuts Park for music or maybe chanting you found irritating on 10th August.
Lacking any facts to back up your views, you now resort to ad hominem critiques of me. E.g. that I have "Marxist leanings". A compliment I decline.
I'm just a dull old Social Democrat.Except of course as used by the French Director who said: "Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho".
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