Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
A parking conundrum in Crouch End
My neighbour got a ticket the other day, for parking across two pays on our road, Nelson Road, N8. The only weird thing is: We do not have parking bays. We just have lines. There is ONE random line, and that’s it. That was under his car, and he was told he was across two bays.
He is disputing it, of course, but I am now wondering: How can we get this weird line removed, and why is it there in the first place? We’re now getting a bit paranoid about jobsworth parking wardens giving out parking tickets when there’s no good reason for it. They’re just a pain in the a** to dispute, and no one wants the hassle, even though it’s pretty clear there’s no bay there, see photos.
Here's the one little line in question:
See - no bays!!!
Any suggestions?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Alexander Smith on
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Dear Annette,
I think the marking is the Council trying to show the boundary between two bays – “Resident permit holders only” and “Permit holders only”. There is something similar near the Stroud Green & Harringay Library.
But I’m sure that these bays are “not as prescribed” by the Traffic Signs Regulations.
The marking in question is for splitting bays ending with double transverse lines up into individual spaces not exceeding 6600mm in length (as shown in diagram 1032) and is incomplete as there should also be a transverse line in the space between it and the kerb.
Anyhow, I think all of the above paragraph is hardly relevant since the marking was not intended for making two completely separate bays between which parking regulations differ. Each of these supposed bays should surely have its own, separate, end markings and not be sharing them with its neighbour.
All this should (according to the law) make the penalty charge notice unenforceable. Unfortunately, however, my experience is that the Council will not give proper consideration to initial “informal challenges” and I think your friend may have to take his appeal to the “formal representation” stage with the risk of the charge being doubled.
And I don’t think there’s much chance of unlawful markings like this across the borough all being fixed soon or that the enforcement officers will stop issuing notices unlawfully and still less hope that anyone (me included) will get refunds for the tickets we’ve already paid which were not right.
This happens over and over again; see this similar thread: http://www.harringayonline.com/xn/detail/844301:Topic:437256
And its not only Haringey - the whole civil enforcement thing stinks; it’s disgusting and unjust.
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Permalink Reply by Anette on
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That makes sense, and no sense at the same time, as there is no bay as such, just a line, like they forgot to paint the other line(s) they meant to put in.
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What I'm saying is that the line shows the boundary between the 2 signs "Permit holders" & "Resident Permit Holders" (I admit this is what I see on streetview - forgive me if the signs have been changed). To indicate this the Council should have marked out 2 completely separate bays according to diagrams shown in the Traffic Signs Regulations.
Although your neighbour's resident permit would entitle him to park in both, vehicles straddling bays or spaces can be ticketed but in this case an appeal should be successful as the road markings are not only inadequate but also incorrect.
They may have forgotten to put a line dash in but that still wouldn't make it right. I think it's really just incompetence as there are plenty of other bays marked in a similar way.
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@ Alexander, the sign only related to resident's parking, and when that's in operation. Nothing else. At all. So still isn't making sense.
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Hello again Anette,
This bothered me so much I've just driven down to make sure. Go and look carefully at the next sign outside 83 Weston Park (still in Nelson Rd.). It says "Permit holders only" instead of "Resident permit holders only". The line your neighbour parked across was the Council's woeful attempt to create 2 bays - one for each sign.
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Dear Anette,
I've been burning the midnight oil doing some more research & found that my interpretation of the Traffic Signs Regulations is not supported by the Traffic Signs Manual’s guidance to councils which does, in fact, advocate the sharing of end markings between bays.
But here’s the good news:
The line is nevertheless incomplete and so is still, unquestionably, inadequate and not as prescribed.
Also, in your neighbour’s favour, this same guidance acknowledges that people could easily park in the wrong place accidentally and recommends that signs be put at the “changeover point”.
Here is an appeal which was allowed by the adjudicator because of inadequate bay signage:
Case Reference: 2110128649
Appellant:Ms Nino Samkharadze
Authority:Kensington and Chelsea
VRM:KC56UXA
PCN:KE16450430
Contravention Date:03 Feb 2011It has much in common with your neighbour’s case. Also, here’s a link to a Pepipoo motoring fightback forum where I found it and other useful material. http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=77666
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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Alexander, could you please share the link to the specific part of the Manual's Guidance. Thanks.
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Sorry for the delay in replying - I had to lay off the computer for a few days as I was having trouble with my eyes. The document is called "The Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3". Its published by the DfT here as a pdf. The relevant paragraph is 7.23. It is talking mainly about P&D bays but must also apply to any adjacent bays
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Update: I had a call from the council this morning, they're sending someone over to investigate. They thought they were meant to be "business bays" and they messed up when they painted the line (no kidding!!) but that makes no sense, this is a residential road. I was told that this silly line will most likely be removed. Watch this space..
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When things like this go wrong, I think again about the systems in place. Including whether the Parking Service could save money, time, and prevent a lot of problems arising, with more use of cameras and cameraphones.
Years ago Haringey used an efficient graffiti removal firm who sent dated 'before' and 'after' photos as email attachments. Job done; record kept.
If contractors painted the wrong lines in the wrong place, did someone from Haringey inspect and sign-off the job? With a cameraphone a mistake could have been spotted online.
Similarly, if a Civil Enforcement Officer (parking warden) comes across a doubtful line or sign, what about an app which lets the CEO point a cameraphone and get telephone advice?
In my experience, the majority of people want clarity and certainty about parking. As Cllr Rachel Allison wrote in her post above, most people aren't trying it on and trying to cheat the system. They want a common sense approach, and consistency in how the rules are applied.
I completely agree with Rachel about the need for "a much improved triage system for challenged tickets". At present local councils are making unnecessary enemies of motorists.
Maybe in the forthcoming local elections one of the parties or some candidates will offer a serious and practical plan to reform this system? We have good staff running the Parking Service. They need a new direction from elected councillors who themselves have a common sense approach and are on the side of residents.
(Tottenham Hale ward councillor)
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I have just got home, and am mystified. The council has clearly been round, and we seem to have acquired another line, following the original one. It's still not a bay. But it's definitely freshly painted. They have even given the original line a fresh coat, very nice of them.
It's still not a bay though, here's down the road:
And here is up the road. No bay still.
And for avoidance of any doubt, here's a close up of the sign. The ONLY sign:
I have also just found out that two of my neighbours has had PCN's issued, one last week, one the week before. I am about to send another email to Ann Cunningham, will report back.
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