At last - a Turkish Restaurant for Harringay

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Liz on December 17, 2016 at 10:07

Another worrying trend which I think the LCSP highlighted when it first started is the loss of A1 retail space as shops are increasingly bought up by neighbouring restaurants ( or turned into coffee bars). While some places may not be mourned, the submerging of small shops makes it near impossible for new small businesses (Turkish or otherwise) to get premises.

Despite tthe council taking them to court, the very good and successful Turkish run supermarket at the end of my road is being fitted out as a restaurant in an area where there are already three mega restaurants and smaller ones which never seem filled. (I'd like to see their business plan). I was relieved that Disneys remained a retail space and I'm sure I'll use Savers, although the pound shops might not welcome it I expect less well off shoppers in our area will.

Loss of small retail spaces like this can only benefit large chain supermarkets which frequently do not offer the value for money or the authentic products that the independent supermarkets and small shops do, and which, moreover, suck money out of the local economy.

The shopping street I grew up near in Ipswich was once a string of greengrocers, butchers, and other small stores. It's now a depressing line of charity shops, betting shops and low end restaurants and takeaways. People now drive to the supermarkets making the roads bad for cycling and walking is just dull and dispiriting. My mother thought Green Lanes shops were wonderful and reminded her of the high streets of her youth. You never realise what you had until it's gone.

People will argue this is the market deciding or that we're a tourist area and have to suck it up but like Michael I think planning policy can go a long way to help small businesses thrive. It is depressing in the extreme though that even when the council try to prevent loss of A1 space they are not successful. As a shopper who likes to keep her money in the local economy, it is depressing to see the loss of places where I can do this. Use 'em or lose 'em, folks.

Permalink Reply by Hugh on December 17, 2016 at 10:29

It's not just premises size that's affected. It's rent levels too. As the large restaurants thrive, their profits increase and rent levels rise. This means that less profitable businesses that serve the community like (Turkish owned) Cafe Lemon get forced out and move to cheaper areas (in the case of Cafe Lemon West Green Road). Others who want to get a foothold can't afford it or find it difficult to secure premises. 

The trend is not one that benefits the local community. 

Permalink Reply by DTW on December 17, 2016 at 10:38

Hang on though. Surely the point of the market mechanism is that cheaper areas gain business precisely because this fact. If capitalism allows us to celebrate bankruptcy surely we can welcome a positive outcome such as west green lane improving...

Permalink Reply by Hugh on December 17, 2016 at 10:44

The positive benefits for West Green Road are to be welcomed. But capitalism or market mechanics are far from perfect and civil society has long sought to control their excesses and downsides. Long may it continue to do so. 

Permalink Reply by John McMullan on December 17, 2016 at 12:23

Does a four shop fronted restaurant pay the same council tax/business rates as four shops?

Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on December 17, 2016 at 15:41

You can look up rateable values here
https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/view-my-valuation/list-valuations-by...

Permalink Reply by StephenBln on December 17, 2016 at 15:00

Starting a business is often the only option for Turks and some other nationalities, because they can't find any other employment, often due to lack of reading and writing skills of the direct immigrant generation. That is the reason for the surfeit of Turkish businesses. Would you prefer for them to be unemployed? After that the market takes over and the good retailers survive and the others move on to try another location. This has been the case for over a hundred years, also with other immigrant groups and in many countries/cities.

I live in the city with the largest turkish population outside of Turkey and that is the case here too. Something else that I have noticed here, but which is very hard to control and certainly illegal (I'm certainly not saying that is the case in Harringay/Haringey), is that other Turks seem to pay lower prices than others. A kind of Türk Discount. Check it out when buying bread etc.,

Permalink Reply by StephenBln on December 19, 2016 at 0:41

Yeah, of course.. Kreuzberg BTW..

Permalink Reply by Pat on December 19, 2016 at 7:31

So, do you do the same amount of moaning in Chinatown, because all the menus are pretty identical? As per usual Green Lanes was very busy last night, with all the restaurants nearly full of families eating and enjoying themselves. The restaurants were busy serving a wider community and not worried about sniffy locals.

Permalink Reply by Liz on December 19, 2016 at 8:49

Pat, Chinatown is in trouble. Encroaching big business, huge rent rises, loss of A1 retail and the market, its central location a target for luxury development means small businesses and independent retailers are being squeezed out. It's not the great model for a successful high street that it was 40 years ago. There are no sniffy locals any more, just tourists who take a photo and then go to KFC.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/29/chinatown-restauran...

Permalink Reply by Abi on December 19, 2016 at 9:20

But Liz elsewhere you're proposing that the answer is prioritising retail space over restaurants isn't it? With reference to the retail environment of when you were a child. I have to admit I find that a bit odd when high streets that once relied on such businesses are struggling to survive. Why would you replace a model that is working with one that presents more of a challenge in today's landscape?

Honestly? I think this is more just about personal taste and people wanting the area to be different to the way it currently is because it isn't their cup of tea. That's fine if it's your (plural) view, but people need to be honest about it.

Permalink Reply by Liz on December 19, 2016 at 9:59

I'm sure no one ever foresaw the day a vibrant community like Chinatown would start to fail either.

It's a question of a day time economy and a night time economy that complement each other. Too much daytime and the area dies after 7pm - Wood Green being an example- too much nighttime and the area is abandoned by small business who can't compete and the holes are filled by those that can afford high rent rises or who get special rates like charity shops (which I like but too many can be just as damaging to a street as too many restaurants).

It's also about balance and sensible planning. Is this model working? There's a high churn of small restaurants that simply can't attract customers after initial excitement. The local businesses that become mega restaurants are swallowing up retail space which will be very hard to get back and pushing rents up. The need for councils to raise business rates to very high levels to cover the loss of revenue will inevitably favour chains or the wealthy entrpreneur over the small business owner. Money will disappear from the local economy and local people will abandon the street for supermarkets.

Of course, our loss maybe West Green's gain as small exciting businesses move to cheaper rents and more chance of getting a shop front. This can only be good for them and there is of course nothing to stop me from moving my spending power there but I would nevertheless be sad to see the street become a "tourist attraction" and lose its daytime economy and as Chinatown demonstrates what may work for many years can fall victim very quickly to market forces if the location suddenly becomes very desirable to developers.

Cheap food stores also favour the less well off as do cheap restaurants (some may not like chicken shops but they do feed people very cheaply) and the rise and rise of more expensive places and loss of shops exclude the poorer members of our community.

I know people want to make this about middle class people being "sniffy" (some of us have lived here 20+ years by the way and we wouldn't have stayed if it wasn't our "cup of tea") but there's a huge amount of research on healthy high streets - Jane Jacobs would have loved Green Lanes with its constant eyes on the street because there is footfall at all hours, its small local businesses and the money that churns in the local economy, and its mixed community. It's pretty close to what she describes as ideal. I think that's worth protecting and celebrating.

A few years ago, the betting shop expansion was a major threat to that. It was recognised and campaigned against. Fortunately the bubble burst but we still have empty units where those shops have failed. People said then it was just middle class people trying to interfere and discriminate but actually when it became an epidemic they had to recognise its dangers.

In short, as Hugh said elsewhere civic checks on high streets and their unfettered development are a necessary part of municipal life. However, as austerity ideology strangles local government I fear that their capacity to protect local economies and the public realm will wither away. Maybe we all get what we deserve in the end because we seem curiously indifferent to the long slow death of local government. In the end our councillors will be just there to rubber stamp sales and practice party politics on each other as they preside over decline.

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