Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
Basement Conversions-Why Won't our Council Crack Down onThem!?
Does anyone know why Haringey council is refusing to crack down on basement conversions? Anyone have nightmare basement conversions in Haringey to share?
One of my neighbours in Crouch End did a basement conversion last year. The whole project lasted about a year and was a complete nightmare for those who lived on the area: builders working as early as 7am and as late as 10pm (which the council did nothing to discourage), builders urinating in the street and essentially treating the whole street like a building site, horrible, large cracks appearing on internal walls of neighbouring homes and a few homes in the area even reported internal doors sticking (my poor neighbour got stuck in her bathroom!). I myself have been left thousands of pounds out of pocket having to hire contractors to fix the cracks in my walls, and that was with a Party Wall Agreement (which I had to instigate as my neighbour was under no legal obligation to get one and was perfectly prepared to start the building works without one). That's not even to mention the time and energy I wasted having to get my whole flat re-plastered and re-decorated and the stress and anxiety the building works caused me. Like I said, nightmare.
Anyway, I spoke to the Head of Planning for Haringey about my experience and he was completely uninterested. He told me that councils were unable to create any regulations when it came to basement conversions, that such works did not require planning permission, and that there were no plans for Haringey Council to change this. However, other councils, such as Camden, are starting to crack down on basement conversions. Just today, Westminster introduced a "Basement Tax. So, why can't our council do anything to better regulate these works? "Not only are these building works hugely disruptive, they are also dangerous to neighbouring homes: I spoke to a surveyor who told me that this area of London in particular is prone to subsidence and these basement conversions can cause major structural damage to neighbouring homes.
That said, if any of your neighbours are planning a basement conversion, be very very worried!
Tags for Forum Posts: basement conversion, cellar conversion
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by W Bromley on
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Can I ask - who is your appointed surveyor?
If I have his name I can find out if he's a member of fpws or the pyrmus & thisbe club.
There are many surveyors, including members of RICS who only do party wall work once/twice a year so are not so familiar with the party wall act. A building surveyor is generally not a party wall specialist.
Was your appointed surveyor just your surveyor (adjoining owners surveyor) or was the same surveyor appointed by both owners, "Agreed surveyor"?
Your surveyor is wrong in what he says, if the damage is caused by notifiable works it is recoverable under the act and it is the appointed surveyors legal duty to resolve the dispute. There is no expiry date within the act.
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Permalink Reply by Mavic Starfish on
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Thanks for this info, I have a very similar issue caused by a loft conversion, but I did have a solicitor to represent us regarding party wall, I will be interested to see what is the response regarding the lapsed time since the completion of works
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Hi Mavic,
Party wall surveyors have to work on the balance of probability the same as the courts do.
So if damage is noticed 5 years after some works is complete, it is probably not the works that have caused the issue - thus if you have called in the surveyors - you would get the bill.
If cracking came within a year or so,
the works could well have caused the problem.
The appointed surveyors would determine the cause and damages if appropriate.
Please note, us party wall surveyors can only deal with damage caused by notifiable works under the act. Other damage has to be dealt with by the courts.
The act was brought in to place to resolve disputes just like this, freeing up the courts for more important matters and saving the respective owners money and time.
You are within your rights under common law to claim for your damages, but courts dont always award your legal costs so can leave you out of pocket. This route also takes longer.
Did your surveyor refuse to deal with the issue you have now?
W Bromley - https://www.mrpartywall.co.uk/
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The issue has come to light this weekend, so this thread was very timely, although unfortunate situation for the OP. I will contact solicitor tomorrow, hopefully he will be straight on to it as he actually contacted us after seeing a planning application. I was a bit wary as it seemed a bit like ambulance chasing but I did a bit of research and they were bona fide.
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The issue you speak of, is this the crack that has come after your neighbours loft conversion?
Am I correct - you are choosing to go through common law with solicitors rather than the party wall surveyor?
If your neighbour served you notice for the works and you dissented, your appointed surveyor will deal with the problem
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Yes cracks appeared after loft conversion, we were served notice. ( thanks to the surveyor contacting us to let us know about the works) and signed an agreement via our appointed party wall surveyor, so thanks for the above, as that makes it clear - he will be able to deal with the problem that has appeared 18 or so months after the completion of works.
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using a party wall surveyor will certainly cost less and be quicker than through the courts.
18 months is quite a long time for cracks to come after a loft conversion though.
The surveyors or court (which ever route you choose) could say the works are not responsible for the damage - leaving you with the bill.
consider taking some advice from a local structural engineer before opening up a official dispute - you dont want to get stuck with a 2k bill. A S.E. should take a look and do a little report for 2-£300.
I know a good S.E if you want his number.
The party wall surveyors - you say they wrote to you. The only companies near you that I've heard write in such a way are Peter Barry and vincent brown. was it either of these? -
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Thank for so much for your help. So, does this mean that if we notice subsidence in a couple of years, we can take legal action against our neighbor?
Our surveyor works for DPA. He was an "ambulance chaser" surveyor. We received an unsolicited letter from him in the post informing us of our neighbour's plans and we panicked and instructed him. He does claim to be a member of RIBA and RICS. Our adjoining neighbor appointed a different surveyor.
Our surveyor is claiming that any damage we now notice in our flat has nothing to do with the building works next door and we will have no legal right to claim compensation (the works ended less than a year ago). He claims a Structural Engineer confirmed that we will not suffer differential settlement or subsidence because of the works next door and, if we do, it has nothing to do with the basement conversion. However, how could a structural engineer confirm this? Surely it will take a while for subsidence to become apparent? Also, the structural engineer he spoke to is the same structural engineer who was hired by the adjoining neighbor to work on the basement conversion - he's not impartial. We asked that the adjoining neighbor pay for an independent structural engineer but they refused.
The whole experience is just very confusing and stressing me out. I feel like nobody cares - what is the point of owning a home if a neighbor can damage it and you have no right to any compensation?
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I've checked with fpws and pyramus & thisbe,
I cant fine a surveyor from DPA that is a member with either of them.
To join either of the above you have a pass a interview with a panel of experts, they ask around 50 questions on all aspects of party wall work and the party wall act.
Any one choosing a party wall surveyor should make sure they are a member of either fpws or pyramus & thisbe - this will make sure they have enough knowledge to do the job.
RICS, RIBA, CIOB ect does not check knowledge on party wall work and the act.No organisation checks pricing, so if you want to keep a surveyors morality in check, ask for a fixed price, rather than hourly - all good companies will offer this.
In answer to your question - if there is subsidence caused by the works in any length of time, your surveyor can award damages or you can take action through the court.
As it moves further away from the date the works were complete it will become harder to prove that the works were responsible for the subsidence.
If you need the number of a structural engineer, I can pass on his details. He specializes in basements.
Your problem now is you have a party wall surveyor that either does not know the party wall act or refuses to go against the structural engineers word as the case could end up in court.
Your surveyor could've got his own structural engineer as an adviser through the process and the cost of such would've been down to the building owner.
I would suggest getting your own S.E. It wont cost so much - once you have this, you could refer the case to the selected "third surveyor".
Or the third surveyor could instruct a S.E. but if the S.E. does not agree with you, you will be left with the surveyors & S.E. costs - if the S.E. does agree, then all costs will be paid by the building owner.
When ever there are a building owners surveyor and a adjoining owners surveyor appointed, there must also be a third surveyor selected at the start of the process.
The 2 surveyors select this 3rd surveyor and his details should have been given to you. Either surveyor or either owner can refer to the 3rd surveyor at any time.
Please - before making a referral, make sure the 3rd surveyor is with fpws or piramus and on the 3rd surveyor list.
As before, when making an award, the surveyors will decide who pays the fees, so you need to be quite sure your problem was caused by the respective works.
W Bromley https://www.mrpartywall.co.uk/
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Thank you so much for your help!
Yes ,we do have a "third surveyor". His name is Alex Frame. He also refused to instruct a S.E. Well, actually, both he and my surveyor claimed that they forwarded pictures of the cracks in our home to an independent S.E that "they know" however when I asked for the details of this S.E they refused to pass on his details. That's when the S.E who worked on the basement conversion stepped in but, like I said, he's not impartial. Also, he never did a report, he basically just spent 5 minutes walking around our flat. I would have preferred a S.E we hired to do an actual structural report. All surveyors refused to have the adjoining neighbor pay for this.
So, my issue is I have no way of knowing if these works caused major structural damage to my flat. My flat was very badly damaged during the works (we're talking cracks that were inches wide). I don't think it's unreasonable that we ask for the neighbors to pay for a structural report. Still, I will speak to the other freeholders in my building regarding paying for our own S.E. I will definitely let you know if I need a referral. I'm just happy to know we can take the neighbors to court if it turns out our building did suffer structural damage. Our surveyor said we couldn't, and that once the Party Wall Award was "closed" we could not take legal action against any further damage to our flat.
All this stress for someone else's building works!! I really wish the council would put an end to these basement works.
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Alex Frame is the president of FPWS and is very knowledgeable, his son is Stuart Frame a property barrister. They have a number of books out on party wall matters.
Did he tell you that you could not take action after the award was served or the guy from DPA?
The 3rd surveyor is selected at the start of the process and more often than not, does not know they were selected until they get a call about the case.
A 3rd surveyor is not notified of a selection as they are rarely called upon.
If a 3rd surveyor is too busy to deal with it, they dont have to act and then another 3rd surveyor is selected.
If you want advice/a second opinion to mine from a local party wall specialist, give watson woods a quick call - they'll also give you free advice
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Alex was copied in on most of the correspondence between us and our surveyor, including correspondence in which my surveyor states that I can no longer take any legal action, so I guess he knew? I'm glad Alex is an experienced Party Wall surveyor but I don't think he acted professionally - like I said, he was copied in on most correspondence and he must have seen how stressed we were and yet did very little to help. Remember, we're not builders - seeing large cracks was very scary for us - and we sent many desperate emails begging for help and guidance. Our surveyor also pressured us not to use the 3rd surveyor, emphasizing that we would have to cover any costs if the 3rd surveyor did not agree with us. Is there any reason why our surveyor would not want us to use the 3rd surveyor?
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