Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
How can we get our local politicians and other public servants to post regularly in this forum?
I've been asked by a shyer member to put up this topic in the hope that more people will contribute their ideas and strategies, inspired by Michael Andersen's post:
Why do so few HoL members post on this site?
I think many of us want to be able to ask them stuff directly on this site (a sort of 'virtual surgery') and get a timely reply. I'd extend that to Council Officers too. For the politicians, I suppose there are two sorts of posts we might want to make:
a) 'Business' questions/comments about things like why everyday services are not up to scratch etc. We might have to ban things that really ought to be reported using the Councils reporting facilities, because they can't have an official and an unofficial system for dealing with litter or whatever is counter-productive. Politicians are supposed to be a conduit to power though and if we get together and press for things here and they are 'on duty' then we as a band of locals can work for beneficial change more effectively online than anywhere else. Hugh's Cash Mob for instance is an example of direct, local action that surely Cllrs want to and should be involved in - HoL discussions can create actual local change:
b) 'Political' questions about wider issues like going to war - should that be limited to our MP's though? Do you want to read non-ward-specific views from your ward Councillor over matters they have no real control over? The Council can declare the borough a 'Frack-Free Zone' which is an international issue, so it's not as if they are powerless but you know what I mean.
Issues like whether or not there should be cuts or could we not use our savings and borrow against our future wealth as it's so expensive and damaging to cut, cut, cut are relevant to local issues. With so little money and so many in poverty in the East - how can the rich West expect political support for even a single penny? Some Cllrs in the past have, for instance, refused to enact central government cuts and as far as I recall went to prison for it, provoking a law that means they can't simply refuse what Whitehall orders. The Chief Exec of Barnet has now moved jobs to be the Chief Exec of Haringey - do we want to create content that makes local political points as a spur to action?:
So, are those the sorts of discussions we want to have here with our reps and between ourselves?
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Some UK politicians are very 'internet-savvy'. So as to try to take the measure of our politicians, here are some Councillors who are digital award winners:
Cllr Melvyn Caplan, Westminster City Council was the driving force behind the Tri-Borough’s Customer Led Transformation Programme. This encouraged the adoption of new technologies internally, such as interactive and collaborative meeting room tools and the incorporation of mobile and tablet devices into council work, saving over £1m across the council
Cllr Muhammed Butt, London Borough of Brent led a transformation of the way that Brent Council operates, incorporating social media into its communications, along with live-streaming of council meetings. By making digital innovation central to the council’s activity, Cllr Butt has helped to ensure that technology is utilized to protect and enhance essential services.
Cllr Stephen Canning, Braintree District Council developed and supported the concept of ‘Braintree hour’ on twitter, which encourages the promotion of local businesses to the community, as well as building community cohesion. The scheme has spread to other council throughout the region.
Cllr Theo Blackwell, London Borough of Camden lead LB Camden’s first digital strategy, encouraging collaboration and new thinking across the council, as well as building partnerships with business. Innovations at the council include coding of after school clubs, expanded public wi-fi access, peer-to-peer lending schemes, and digital inclusion work in social housing.
Cllr Tom Sleigh, City of London Council ran a successful online campaign to reinstate rubbish bins in the City of London, twenty years after they were removed following terrorist activity. He launched a similar campaign to reduce speed limits to 20Mph across the City, using social media, surveys, and innovative methods of sharing information.
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Salford Council has put HoL-like facilities on their own website - would things like this not be better:
Current discussion forums on this website:
- Are you a carer for a friend or relative?
- Are you quitting smoking?
- Dying matters
- Family history search
- Find old friends
- General discussions
- GhostCam
- Ordsall Hall Museum
- Salford Museum and Art Gallery
- Schools information
As we know that our local politicians don't post here, I'd like to simulate what our councillors/politicians might argue if they did actually post here:
1) It is a relatively low-paid job (starting salary £10,500) and there are literally thousands of meetings to go to - each ward in Haringey, for instance, has loads of community events (many in the evenings) which local Cllrs feel obliged to attend. Apart from the work of attending numerous policy meetings and dealing with people's problems by chasing Council Officials, most Cllrs put in way more hours than they're supposed to - most have second jobs too I think, some full-time. So, time spent HoL-typing is a dereliction of their duty to put themselves in front of local people and listen, then take up the issues raised by the face-to-face contacts they say are the only way to do 'real' politics. Be good to see a breakdown of how they spend their time on our behalf.
2) Politicians are 'people people' - all the way up the chain the paramount interaction is always stressed as being 'talking to people', even Cabinet Ministers regularly knock on doors apparently. I think this is an excuse and simply untrue today anyway. Many of the older ones just don't 'get' the internet. Claiming to be 'in touch' with the electorate gives them the chance that they often take to say 'people tell me' or 'my constituents think' when the human truth is that most politicians hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest. Ask them what the main issues are in their wards and they cite things that others would prioritise differently - it's a matter of opinion - they are not accurate surveyors - they could be better at quantifying views. Considering the main things they ignore specifically:
- Facebook: they don't consider it worth posting to Facebook for instance whereas many here would probably think they ought to. What would be better on Facebook here than there? Many have the problem that they've already got a 'personal' Facebook page so are stuck with converting it to a 'public' page, which exposes their 'real' friends to a wider exposure than they signed up for. Almost none of them know how to post in one place and have it 'syndicated' - they are not generally techophiles.
- Twitter: many councillors do tweet, with the result that we are drowning in Tweets that nobody really looks at and no-one outside their circle ever responds to, so this is proof in their eyes that digital is only for people with time on their hands. We could tweet our Cllrs and they would probably react, but why don't we do that? From a Cllrs point of view, trying to plan how you spend your time must be close to impossible as residents can pop up at any time 24hrs a day with an issue you need to respond to.
- Blogs: lots of work for very little measurable return. You try writing even one paragraph of political comment - it could take you all afternoon, Risk that what you wrote might accidentally come back to haunt you or worse, that nobody at all would even bother to read it. Fierce competition from great political bloggers could make yours look pathetic. You're imposing a liability on future Cllrs to match your output - they won't thank you for that.
- Newsfeeds - how would it be if a Cllrs auto-posted a newsfeed of all their activities on HoL (say auto-posting their tweets for instance) - do we want that? Wouldn't it be seen as a cynical bit of advertising? Would anyone subscribe to it?
4) Political posts on HoL attract 'history's greatest monster' type vitriol - people make virulent, unsubstantiated personal attacks on the character of local politicians they've never met, often barging into a topic and steering it towards hatred, racism etc. Any politician who posts here risks a shed-load of this sort of horrible stuff from us - what's in it for the politician? They'd need an army of clerical help to unpick each accusation and debunk it and none have that resource - if they had they'd spend it otherwise.
5) Geographically HoL is limited to Harringay. Bounds Green has an excellent HoL-type forum for example, so why would anyone from round there post here? We all know that this site reaches all of Haringey (alright, there's better coverage of the West of the borough, but it could have a lot more Eastern stuff if people would bother) but they will say the clue's in the name. There is no one forum for the whole of Haringey and why should there be? There are no politicians who represent the whole of Haringey (discounting the 'ruling' party on the Council) - it's split by two MP's and lots of ward councillors. So, how would it work, a 'Tottenham' section on HoL for instance?
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To remind you, our local politicians are:
Tottenham: Incumbent: David Lammy MP(Labour)
prospective: any?
Hornsey and Wood Green: Incumbent: Lynne Featherstone MP(Liberal Democrat) 
Prospective: Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green,Labour):
any others?
Haringey Councillors:
Photograph
|
Councillor
|
Political party
|
Ward
|
|---|---|---|---|
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Work mobile: 07528 443838 Work: david.beacham@haringey.gov.uk |
Liberal Democrats | Alexandra |
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Work mobile: 07812 677729 Work: liz.mcshane@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Alexandra |
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Work mobile: 07812 677720 Work: james.patterson@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Alexandra |
 |
Work mobile: 07812 677743 Work: clare.bull@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Bounds Green |
 |
Councillor Joanna Christophides Work mobile: 07854 544697 Work: joanna.christophides@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Bounds Green |
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Cabinet Member for Planning Work: 020 8489 2964 (office) Work mobile: 075408 54293 Work: ali.demirci@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Bounds Green |
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Work mobile: 07940 005507 Work: joseph.ejiofor@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Bruce Grove |
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Cabinet Member for Environment Work: 020 8489 2687 (office) Work mobile: 07854 544696 Work: stuart.mcnamara@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Bruce Grove |
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Work mobile: 07812 677717 Work: felicia.opoku@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Bruce Grove |
 |
Cabinet Member for Resources and Culture Work: 020 8489 2964 (office) Work mobile: 07812 677736 Work: jason.arthur@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Crouch End |
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Work mobile: 07815 700588 Work: natan.doron@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Crouch End |
 |
Leader of the Opposition Work mobile: 07812 677730 Work: sarah.elliott@haringey.gov.uk |
Liberal Democrats | Crouch End |
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Work mobile: 07812 677741 Work: patrick.berryman@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Fortis Green |
 |
Home: 020 8489 4005 Work: martin.newton@haringey.gov.uk |
Liberal Democrats | Fortis Green |
 |
Work: 0208 444 9516 Work: viv.ross@haringey.gov.uk |
Liberal Democrats | Fortis Green |
 |
Work: gina.adamou@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Harringay |
 |
Work mobile: 07812 677724 Work: emine.ibrahim@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Harringay |
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Work mobile: 07812 677710 Work: james.ryan@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Harringay |
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Work mobile: 07812 677737 Work: clive.carter@haringey.gov.uk |
Liberal Democrats | Highgate |
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Home: 020 8348 2710 Work mobile: 07870 157703 Work: bob.hare@haringey.gov.uk |
Liberal Democrats | Highgate |
 |
Work mobile: 07818 094573 Work: liz.morris@haringey.gov.uk |
Liberal Democrats | Highgate |
 |
Work mobile: 07812 677723 Work: adam.jogee@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Hornsey |
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Work mobile: 07812 677727 Work: jennifer.mann@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Hornsey |
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Work mobile: 07812 677 711 Work: elin.weston@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Hornsey |
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Work mobile: 07812 677738 Work: mark.blake@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Muswell Hill |
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Chair of Adults and Health Scrutiny Panel Work mobile: 07812 677734 Work: pippa.connor@haringey.gov.uk |
Liberal Democrats | Muswell Hill |
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Home: 020 8489 4005 Work: gail.engert@haringey.gov.uk |
Liberal Democrats | Muswell Hill |
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Work mobile: 07812 677735 Work: peray.ahmet@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Noel Park |
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Work mobile: 07812 677721 Work: denise.marshall@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Noel Park |
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Cabinet Member for Housing and Regeneration Work: 020 8489 2964 (office) Work mobile: 07854 481050 Work: alan.strickland@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Noel Park |
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Mayor of Haringey Work mobile: 07977 562105 Work: kaushika.amin@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Northumberland Park |
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Work mobile: 07967 336448 Work: john.bevan@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Northumberland Park |
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Work mobile: 07967 336234 Work: sheila.peacock@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Northumberland Park |
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Work mobile: 07971 804722 Work: dhiren.basu@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Seven Sisters |
 |
Cabinet Member for Economic Development, Social Inclusion and Sustainability Work: 020 8489 2687 (office) Work mobile: 07794 218566 Work: joe.goldberg@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Seven Sisters |
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Leader of the Council Work: 020 8489 2241 Work: claire.kober@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Seven Sisters |
 |
Chair of Environment and Community Safety Scrutiny Panel Work mobile: 078126 77740 Work: barbara.blake@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | St Ann's |
 |
Cabinet Member for Health and Wellbeing Work: 020 8489 2964 (office) Work mobile: 07812 677713 Work: peter.morton@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | St Ann's |
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Work mobile: 07812 677716 Work: aligul.ozbek@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | St Ann's |
 |
Work mobile: 07812 677728 Work: tim.gallagher@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Stroud Green |
 |
Chair of Children and Young People Scrutiny Panel Work mobile: 07583 119123 Work: kirsten.hearn@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Stroud Green |
 |
Work mobile: 07812 677709 Work: raj.sahota@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Stroud Green |
 |
Home: 020 8340 8477 Work: isidoros.diakides@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Tottenham Green |
 |
Work mobile: 07812 677722 Work: makbule.gunes@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Tottenham Green |
 |
Deputy Leader and Cabinet Member for Communities Work: 020 8489 2241 (office) Work mobile: 07817 954961 Work: bernice.vanier@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Tottenham Green |
 |
Work mobile: 07812 677739 Work: vincent.carroll@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Tottenham Hale |
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Home: 020 8376 2310 Work: lorna.reith@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Tottenham Hale |
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Work mobile: 07854 002078 Work: reg.rice@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Tottenham Hale |
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Councillor Eugene Akwasi-Ayisi Work mobile: 07812 677732 Work: eugene.akwasi-Ayisi@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | West Green |
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Work mobile: 07870 157701 Work: eddie.griffith@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | West Green |
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Work mobile: 07870 157883 Work: toni.mallett@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | West Green |
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Chair of Housing and Regeneration Scrutiny Panel Home: 020 8800 7658 Work: charles.adje@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | White Hart Lane |
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Chair Overview & Scrutiny Committee Work mobile: 077995 86111 Work: whl@gideonbull.co.uk |
Labour | White Hart Lane |
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Work: public no - 020 8815 9208 Work mobile: 07854 002675 Work: anne.stennett@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | White Hart Lane |
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Work mobile: 07967 336120 Work: george.meehan@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Woodside |
 |
Cabinet Member for Children and Families Work: 020 8489 2687(office) Work mobile: 07854 002470 Work: ann.waters@haringey.gov.uk |
Labour | Woodside |
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Please, please don't make personal comments about their views, conduct, strengths, failing etc - this is a discussion about how and why we can get them to be active participants on HoL, not a chance to lambaste/praise them.
Tags for Forum Posts: Catherine West, David Lammy, Lynne Featherstone, MP, democracy, engagement, involvement, local politics
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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I agree. So much for once you are elected you represent everyone in the ward...
I also know that Cllr Stuart McNamara is trying to curb the ability of local, non-political, activists to contact council officers directly. He wants us to go through our elected representatives. The stranglehold on power is being renewed. I wonder why?
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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I've just seen this post, John. When did Stuart McNamara do this? Got some copy emails?
Is it more than: 'Please don't automatically go through the most helpful council officer you've had contact with?' In which case I'm sure you can see several practical justifications.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on
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Patrick, this is silly - what you mean is, you've built a toytown model for yourself and are showing it off.
What about the law? Councils have statutory duties they must fulfill. Doesn't matter if residents don't like it, the Council has to do it. Nobody 'does their own thing'.
The residents are not irritated - they vote for the Council time and time again.
The Council tries as hard as they can to get opinions from residents and tries to get Cllrs to balance the conflicting ones - look at the complex differences of opinion over planning. Meanwhile, people could not even be bothered to vote, let alone fill in a survey sheet. People like you encourage negativity and make it all so much harder.
People are more engaged than they've ever been - the whole culture has leant toward participation enabled by tech. Millions of people are involved all over the world. People know more about politics than they ever did. 85%+ turnout in Scotland - higher than in the 2nd World War!
Some are like you - so jaundiced in their view that 'not much will happen' that not even Father Xmas would make them admit they're getting a good deal - moaning and bringing everyone down so it all looks hopeless, with no comebacks.
It is really hard to being about beneficial change, it's not that it's not being blocked by a group of horrible cllrs, it's that it's not easy when there is so little resource and so much need.
You could get off our high horse and state how you would do anything differently - all the main facts are freely available. If you did you'd look even sillier. How do you think that makes the people feel who are trying hard, day after day to deal with real people who are desperate?
It's also true that among the finest things you can do is get involved with the people who live around you to provide a better environment for everyone - Council are more prepared to facilitate that with real help than they've ever been - you just have to go out there and do it - there's no cavalry coming to rescue your miserable, self-inflicted world- you need to do stuff yourself if you want things to change. You'll be happier and better for it - what's not to like?
(This post has been edited by site admin for infringing our house rules).
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Sorry Hugh and thanks for the heads up - not my intention, I'll make an effort to be sweeter.
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Permalink Reply by pamish on
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The exclusive publication of local politicians' blogs in the Journal - both Tottenham and Hornsey versions - has been a source of amusement to me for years, because they don't post. But I'm left with egg on my chin today as Cllr Kober has chosen this weekend to go public, as she has a budget conversation to launch. Enjoy "Our Tomorrow, Haringey Council’s budget conversation." She asks for this: "Through the Investing in our Tomorrow conversation, we want to hear from everyone who lives, works and runs a business in the borough. We want to better understand what they love about Haringey; what matters to them most about the borough they call home; what action they might take to improve their neighbourhood and help their community, and how we should invest the money we do have in the right ways so that together we can do things better."
I would have thought one excellent way to start the conversation rolling would be to post that request here - so Cllr Kober, where are you? I'll bite my lip with my answer till you post here, rather than on the Journal website which has rather fewer readers AFAIK.
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>>one excellent way to start the conversation rolling
Thanks Pamish for your useful contribution - if you worked for the council, how would you use what is likely to be posted here? Almost nobody seems interested in grappling with the actual problem - the lack of resource.
Does anyone doubt that the Council are trying to ask people for help? I think they do doubt it - this site, led by some powerful frequent posters, seems to have gotten themselves in a twist where nothing is good enough, nothing good can come out of anything, we're all doomed, it's a failing council, everything Clare Kober does is namecalled, derided, sometimes to the point of approaching libellous hate speech. Given that atmosphere, would you want to post here? Where is the track record of useful contribution as far as the Council is concerned? You and I can find good stuff, but can they?
The fact that people do not want to contribute until the poster's 'terms and conditions' are met is disappointing. If, for instance, they appointed a Council Officer to post here and gather the results, I bet that person would get lots of garbage thrwon at them - would anyone here want that job?
The truth surely is that, to make a valid contribution takes an awful lot of work - knowledge of the borough, a professional view and dedication to the public service. People here don't want to be bothered to do all that stuff, they just enjoy a good carp. I know I do :)
So, where is the quality response that any Council would want, and arguably, deserve, likely to come from? It seems true that, given the chance to change everything, people simply could not be bothered to give it more than a cursory look. And yet they are the first to moan endlessly about this and that shortcoming, to make nasty personal remarks to those of their neighbours they've often never met who take on the thankless, badly paid task of representing them.
I call bankruptcy! This forum is bankrupt of ideas, of generosity, of initiative, of taken responsibility - it's become a place to snipe, usually whilst hiding behind an anonymous ID - you bunch of cowards know who you are.
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Are there any councils that use open forums well? This one pays lip service to the old print media now online Journals - but commenting there is longwinded and not popular. We do have thousands of people who use Facebook, but who reads the LBH feed? It is open for comments, but the posts are PR-based. Someone calling himself Joe Goldberg has commented on this latest Conversation, so is this a way to draw in the Cllrs?
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Permalink Reply by John D on
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" everyone who lives, works and runs a business in the borough "
I live here but don't work here, nor do I run a business - am I excluded ?
Is she severely restricting the type of respondent, or is she just careless ?
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Permalink Reply by Gordon T on
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Politician, rhetoric, set of three desirable attributes the most important one last - go figure!
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Presumably it should read:
" everyone who either lives, works or runs a business in the borough "
How could we get to the point where this obvious mistake in grammar could be picked up by someone like you, fed back and corrected by them, with credit given due to your kindness in offering your time for free to help them do stuff better?
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