Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
The Hell that is Wood Green
Yesterday, I had the misfortune to find myself in the shopping mall. Walking out the big automatic doors and into the crowd of Star Wars pub extras who were smoking, spitting and squabbling on the footpath I witnessed what for me sums up the whole carbuncle on the arse of Haringey that is Wood Green High Road. One of the characters stormed through the crowd with his status dog in tow. I was reflecting on the fact that ‘status’ dogs don't seem to work (as the people who have them only ever seem to be what everyone else in society would consider low status). Everything suddenly went quiet except the ever present sirens. The status dog had stopped and released its copious bowels all over the footpath. It was like turning on the light in an HMO; the cockroaches screamed and scattered. The dog owner laughed and walked on. It was probably one of the most disgusting things I have seen or smelt in London. Eventually the crowd returned and watched the next horde trample the mess up and down the road. There was no-one to turn to, no-one to clean up and more importantly no-one with the authority to challenge and/or shoot the dog owner. Things just returned to normal.
The whole experience made me think how the council, local police and traders believe that we're all animals if they are happy for us to have to deal with this every time we go to the High Road. It's easy enough for me to hop on a bus and head off to Crouch End or Islington or even Enfield to shop but if you're older or disabled and have trouble getting around or not enough money for the bus it must be pretty grim to face it every day. Imagine how the standard little old lady dreads heading out into the crowds, litter, phlegm, smoke and anti-social behaviour of Wood Green every morning to get the milk.
Short of manning water cannons at each end of the High Road and employing some mercenaries with batons to control the crowds, I don’t know what can be done. Are there any clever ‘nudges’ or interventions that could improve Wood Green? Is it a matter of tarting the place up and hoping that the crowds respect their new surroundings? Is it signage to remind, and in many instances educate, people that spitting, littering and barging into other people is just not the done thing? Or do we just give up, bulldoze the lot and install a waterhole in the middle and let the law of the jungle and the status dog owners prevail?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Lauren on
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The use of Bulldoze was a metaphor. You used one (aggressively) when you suggested I was 'crying' when I merely pointed out something horrible had happened to me that upheld my reason why I don't go to Wood Green very much. Which is not because I don't like Wood Green, but because there are too many aggressive and shady people there which make visiting other places a more viable and enjoyable alternative.
I lived in Wood Green in the mid/late 90's and quite liked it then. There was a good department store (Pearsons) and a better social scene with a good mix of pubs (O'Rafferty's was one of the best pubs in London for a night out) and not just coffee shops and kebab shops, and various outlets selling crap plastic accessories and bits for mobile phones.
"If you don't like wood green just don't go".
This is exactly what is causing the problems we are talking about.
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Permalink Reply by Pat on
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Better yet, why not build enclosed ghettos to ensure that you don't have to mix with the low status people. Just let them out to clean your house and offices then curfew. Then you'll be free to walk around your designated shopping haven free from all these unsavoury people that make your life such hell.
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Permalink Reply by LSquared on
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Why are you conflating mixing with low behaviour, and the aftereffects thereof, with "low status", whatever that means?
I don't give a monkeys about anyone's status. I give not only a monkeys but a whole troupe of gorillas about the degrading impact the minority of people whose behaviour is frankly sub human have on the quality of life of the majority who do not leave dogshit in the middle of the street, wee in the shops or use the streets and parks as a rubbish bin.
I can't tell you what someone's "status" is because I can't tell by looking, but I can see how individuals behave and there are some individuals who frankly none of us should have to mix with.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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Years ago we knew someone whose sister had moved to New York. She described how very upset it made her when she saw homeless people in the streets there.
Especially when she visited one of favourite department stores before Christmas and actually had to step over someone lying asleep in the doorway.
I seem to recall Professor David Harvey (a Brit who teaches in New York) suggesting that Manhattan was on the way to becoming one large open air shopping mall for the rich and for tourists. Will London follow suit?
Are there options which don't involve de facto ghettos? The gated privatised Ground Control described by Anna Minton?
The more people express their views frankly in this thread, the more I think it's potentially at least, one of the most important and possibly fruitful topics raised on Harringay Online.
(Tottenham Hale ward councillor)
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Permalink Reply by Liz on
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There is a good question in amidst all the ranting of the original piece that seems to have been completely missed in the haste to consign dear old Wood Green to the demolition men. Osbawn asks:
Are there any clever ‘nudges’ or interventions that could improve Wood Green? Is it a matter of tarting the place up and hoping that the crowds respect their new surroundings? Is it signage to remind, and in many instances educate, people that spitting, littering and barging into other people is just not the done thing?
Now that hopefully everyone has got it off their chest about how much they can't stand it, is there an answer?
I've picked out from the thread (none of these are my ideas but yours dear readers)
-More community policing to enforce rules re littering, dog mess.
-Better choice in shops and of shops (down to chains but it's worth flagging that some things that you'd expect to be able to get like a black worksuit shouldn't be beyond them). With some interesting things being done with business rates by gov can more interesting indy shops by persuaded to give Wood Green a go and would you try and support them like people do the BGBS?
-Higher contributions for upkeep from traders (not clear about this point needs elaborating)
-Night life being difficult to find and the sterility of the High Street after the shops shut - this is a problem in the US and I believe attempts have been made to get small cafes to put on music nights etc in places where the streets shut down (since as every good reader of Jane Jacobs knows, it is empty streets that make us as nervous as over full ones). Night life that exists needs better promotion?
-More trees
-More 'arty weirdness' brought out of the enclaves of Choc Factory and other places onto the streets
Can we add more to the list? And think of who might genuinely be interested in taking these ideas forward?
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I often see dog litter on my runs around the West of the Borough (Parkland Walk, Priory Park, Ally Pally) so it is not a problem specific to Wood Green High Street. The choices in terms of shops/items are very much a reflection of the major demographics of the areas. Education through signage could change behaviour but it is a long-term game. What I find hard to stomach is the incessant need to homogenise areas because people want to live in gentrified environments. Wood Green High Street may not be to everybody's taste but it suits my needs and I've never felt threatened by its environment. My kids and I are happy to visit the library and cinema. It's not different from any high street in a relatively 'poor' town.
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I'm not sure any of the suggestions made by people would be 'gentrification.' Wood Green isn't perfect by any means and suggestions from users as to how to make the experience better are hardly homogenisation. I agree about the shops by and large suiting the demographic me being one of them in my M&S jeans and my BHS tops but this thread suggests there may be a market they're not tapping into and most businesses are usually keen to expand into new markets.
While Wood Green is a robust shopping centre in terms of shop occupation, there are interesting deals for small businesses who take over shops that have been empty for over a year and other measures to help them cope with business rates. What truly homogenises a shopping area is when only big stores can afford to locate there and the indy shops can't compete.
I also think there is quite a bit of London-centric assumption made that Wood Green is a 'poor' high street. Compared to my home town, where boarded up shops and the proliferation of tatty pound shops (not that I've got anything against them before anyone starts but too many of them says something about a street) and money shops make it a truly depressing experience, Wood Green is thriving.
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I agree that Wood Green High a Street is thriving compared to other places, especially in similar sized towns in the North and Midlands (I've lived in Sheffield, Coventry and Brum). However, my feeling is that certain aspects of gentrification is an unspoken desire among many of the commenters on this thread, thus the references to Crouch End. I remember Crouch End before it was gentrified. Shopping City may lack in many aspects but I prefer it to the soulless hellholes of the modern mega malls. Having re-read the original comment, it seems more a rant about antisocial behaviour that veered off-track to generalise about the area and residents.
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Yes Mags, not helped by the thread title 'The Hell that is Wood Green' rather than a more appropriate, but less snappy, 'The problems of anti-social behaviour of a minority of visitors to Wood Green High Road'
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Hmm, but people forget that a load of money was spent on WG High Rd around a decade ago. It made a big difference at the time ... for about 12 months, then it went back to being dirty and unloved. It has gone further and further downhill ever since! Who's to blame?
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Permalink Reply by SarahC on
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But is it about low status? I don't get the same feeling in Tottenham, which I would assume is of no higher status, assuming we're talking economically. It feels like a place where people live, where there's a wider community that exists beyond the commercial marketplace. Wood Green feels like everything's a transaction. (And yes, I like Noel Park, the vegetable stalls etc etc, but the high street always feels as if there's an emptiness at the centre.)
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