Is Haringey Planning Incompetent or Corrupt?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mr Wodjacallim on December 21, 2013 at 22:58

I see Councillor Ejiofor is taking a low profile on this discussion so I have sent him a link. ;o)

I am not anticipating any wands being waved in the near future.    I did write to Councillor Kober some time ago and I am still waiting for a reply.

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Permalink Reply by matt on December 21, 2013 at 14:02

Unfortunately one of our very own Harringay residents recently turned down the job of head of planning for Haringey, after being head hunted for the position (good salary too). Reason, among others - too much stress would come with it.

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Permalink Reply by Finsbury Park Ranger on December 21, 2013 at 15:43

I found them to be faily reasonable but they did take over two months to send the documentation and only after reminding them it hadn't been sent.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on December 21, 2013 at 17:27

This is surely an attack on the Chief Executive of the Council, someone who is paid more than £100,000 to lead around 4,000 employees and never says a word in public, it's Directors, many of whom are paid similar amounts, and the planning professionals who are employed by them, and their Council Officer colleagues, many of whom I'd guess live in the borough.

>>This highlights Haringey's planning process is potentially wide open to fraud.

This is a particularly nasty point to make - is there a process that isn't wide open to fraud? Why, I could buy the Harringayonline site admins for a pittance, couldn't I?

I think that the atmosphere of hating on Councils is created by their opponents (whatever the party in charge) and it's a really damaging force that depresses and confounds efforts to build a better neighbourhood here and elsewhere. The adversarial nature of politics means that whatever party is in power, short-sighted opponents who care more about power than the community they aim to serve encourage bad feeling for political gain.

Yes, some people are corrupt, some are incompetent - who knew? Those people are and remain a tiny proportion, but they are in every part of our society. Name a part of our society you admire - they are present in numbers, often men (judging by the prosecutions). The vast majority of people are honest, hard-working and, at least in the public sector, generally dedicated to the public good.  If you don't believe that, I suggest you think again about why you live in a place you don't appear to like, with people you don't appear to believe in.

I agree that there seems to be something in the nature of our society that creates power structures that are easily subjected to control by people who have an oppressive effect on the majority - it's much better than it was, but it's still there.  Abuse of power comes as no surprise.

So, would it be surprising if Planning wasn't incompetent or corrupt? How would we know if they weren't?  

I totally oppose some of the things that planning are doing to my life here where I live and I've addressed them directly, even to the extent of attending planning meetings open to the public and making heavy points in the time I'm allowed. I'm furious that they refuse to see the light and blunder on with their damaging schemes.

However I don't sniff even a scent of incompetence let alone corruption. They have the power, the responsibility, the information, resources, expertise, legislation and the process behind them and I am just an ordinary resident with a point of view.  They don't agree with me, so they win. Much as I don't like it, I give it my best shot and, if I can't get what I want, I accept that.  It would not be good if a mouthy guy like me could get his way just by sheer force of personality. Like those people on talent shows who want to win the quiz with all their hearts - it's not enough, you need to be right to win and there are people who are right who will defeat you. Move on.

The worst aspect of this question for me is the implicit world view - people seem to take on received opinion that in other contexts is easy to spot as horrible.  They reflect fears they've been persuaded to internalise. So, in another context they hate on immigrants, those on benefits, anyone different from themselves - it's almost a latent hatred fuelled by the Daily Mail view of the world. It does nobody any good.

Ask yourself (if you think Planning is incompetent and/or corrupt) if your feelings are just that, feelings.

We have a system where we pay people to work for us though our taxes.  We get the chance to change every aspect of what they do and how they do it at almost every stage.  No need to wait for elections - there are mechanisms in place right now to correct wrongs but are you prepared to use them? Are you content to hold hateful, counter productive views and express them freely, depressing everyone else with what I think are, frankly, lies.

The challenge of standing up and correcting wrongs is beyond them because their views are built on these lies. No, planning is neither incompetent nor corrupt.  It's performance is poor by some measures but bloody marvellous compared to others. Do you really think that there are people who could improve Planning who are not doing it because they are corrupt? Yeah, right.

The truth is surely that, in this complex world, some things are bad - bad stuff happens and the civil servants who run the council try to fix whatever they need to fix, if only to stay in their jobs. The local Cllrs try to keep tabs on stuff and apply a 'common sense' view on behalf of the local people they represent, no doubt resisted by the permanent employees on the council who see Cllrs come and go. The level of scrutiny in the UK is so high that it's hard to get away with stuff I suppose - much of the process is totally open and there are plenty of ways of exposing it further if you're prepared  to put in the work.

There's the rub - people are happy to moan about how bad the council is but are they prepared to even vote once every four years? No, they're not. If you won't even vote, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

Turnout in Haringey local elections for the council last time was 60% (there was a general election on the same day) and the time before that 36%.

Source Cabinet Office/Guardian Data since 1918: http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/16/uk-election-tu... 

That means that no local party were voted for by even close to half the electorate. Next years' election turnout (as there's no general election on the same day) I guess will probably be 40%. Most of us, given the chance to change things, can't even be bothered to fill in a postal vote.

source: http://www.ukpolitical.info/Turnout45.htm

We only have ourselves to blame and moaning is counter productive - the point is to change things. Come on people, who's up for it? Let's accept our responsibility to participate in running our own civic lives by doing stuff that helps - that includes criticism but constructive criticism please. Put up or shut up. Nasty, unaccountable sniping does genuine harm.

There are more opportunities to improve our lives and the lives of our communities than there have ever been and a whole bunch of locals are out there doing that, so be the change you want to see and join them 

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Permalink Reply by Mr Wodjacallim on December 21, 2013 at 22:30

Chis

An articulate response, although I disagree with your view.  Processes like planning should not be open to fraud or avoidable mistake that goes uncorrected or undetected. This is not intended to be a personal attack on the Chief Executive of the Council or any Councillor, though you may see it like that. You should note I spoke highly of the Assistant Director of Planning.

What I am pressing for is to restore some professionalism and quality to Haringey's Planning Service. As you will see from the responses to the original thread, most are disappointed with the service with good reason. Although in fairness some are complimentary, so it is not all bad.  One common thread is:

1. It is virtually impossible to contact Planning about an issue and get a response to a query.
2. The obvious solution is to make a record of the queries or issues then arrange the responses which does not happen. The failure to respond triggers a lot of repeat calls and, in effect, means an army of people are engaged who do not add value when that is what they need to be doing.  To an extent they are caught in the position of fire fighting and unable to put the fire out !!
3. More mistakes are made in Haringey Planning probably because the quality of the service is not measured or managed by senior Management and Councillors.   Each mistake that is made, generates a mountain of extra work for the Planning Department.
4. Because of all the extra work that is created by not answering queries and making avoidable mistakes, it makes it very difficult for Haringey to reach its targets like approving applications in less than six weeks.

It seems to me senior officers, like the Chief Executive and Director of Environmental Services Planning surround themselves with a large number of people dealing with complaints who would argue that Black is White.

What should  be happening is that data should be recorded about how often defects occur in processing Planning Applications and the consequent extra work these defects generate. For example:

1. No of approvals made that do not conform to Haringey's Planning Guidelines
2. No of submissions where drawings are found to inaccurate / inconsistent after approval
3. No of applications where complaints are made of various types - such as building in excess of permission granted, flawed approvals or flawed rejections.
4. The extra amount of work each type of problem generates.

Much of this data can only be captured through the complaints process outside of the Planning Dept.

The number of complaints has tripled in three years which should be a matter for concern. There is a very real risk that if the wrong steps are taken to reach targets, there will be even more fire fighting, even more problems. 

There is a very real possibility that if the Council's senior management cannot improve performance sufficiently, Planning could come under the government's special measures.  I cannot see that being a good for Haringey.

Appendix B of the document below suggests there are serious problems which cannot be denied.

http://www.minutes.haringey.gov.uk/Published/C00000721/M00006482/AI...$SpecRegulatoryCtteereportDMperformance.docx.pdf

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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on December 21, 2013 at 22:41

>>What I am pressing for is to restore some professionalism and quality 

Thanks Patrick but it's this sort of remark that ruins any credibility that you might claim.  You set yourself up as judge and jury, condemning a whole department based on your limited experience.

Are you even aware of the most basic aspects of the situation?

How many employees? What's the budget?  How many qualified employees?  To what level in the planning profession? What period in history do you want to restore them to?

This is an insult to a group of people you seem to know almost nothing about.  

Yet knowing so little about the situation you bring out a string of measures you've pulled out of some hat - again, the most basic of questions:

What existing measures are applied to the planning department to measure their quality? Who decided on those measures and what will cause them to take note of yours?

C.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on January 27, 2014 at 20:51

>>disgusted by the service levels

Without wishing to appear patronising, or to give you a lesson in civics, we in this rich country are far, far better of in our levels of public services than many poor people but even so, I don't think you know what levels of service exist nor how well Haringey Planning meet them - I think you are operating on pure principle.

There are statutory limits on how long planning can take - they can't just delay things until they get it right.  Do you think they are stupid?

With no accurate facts regarding measures at your disposal, King Adrian has decided that Haringey Planning is not good enough. Put another tinny on the barbie m8, its not your job to rule on planning. Its not up to you to decide what "should" happen based on a prejudice or a theory. If you were a planning professional being told that they were below Adrians level of professionalism would that help, do you think? 

>>inconsistent application of the laws 

How many professionals are there in the Planning dept and how many should there be?  What is recognised by planners as measures of professionalism and how close are Haringey to them compared to other similar places?  How often should councils be allowed to fall below those measures and, if they do fall below, what should happen? Privatise them or change the management?  

I doubt if you even know how many applications they have to deal with and yet you have decided that they are inconsistent. 

How many council workers in planning have suffered from the savage cuts?  What allowance should be made for that?

I dont think you even know who is responsible for planning in the council, do you?

Can't you see that it looks like you're upside down - not talking out of your mouth?

I want the cap on Councils ability to borrow to build Council Houses removed so that we can build a hell of of lot of them but it isnt going to happen just because I want it.

The right wing want the market to solve our property problems and your choice of govt will affect planning most.

If you want the developers to continue to suck profits out of us and the poor to be made homeless through benefit cuts that cost more than they save and for innocent people to be moved out of the borough to cheaper property out of London, vote ConDem.

If you want a Mansion Tax, a lot more Council Housing, fairer rents, no bedroom Tax, a higher rate of tax on the rich and a clawback on the £36bn tax they are avoiding to pay the £8bn welfare bill, vote Labour.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on January 27, 2014 at 22:46

I am absolutely not attacking planning, that is you.  Nor saying "vote Labour and grin and bear it" - I consider that a Tory-type approach.

I want people to vote the way they want, not the way I want - I am not stranding for office. This is closer to what I feel:

It is simple - we get the world we deserve.  To change things, we have to actually do something. The least we can do is vote, but there is a whole lot more - it is not enough.  Giving the political process some attention is worth doing, if only because it is so central that it directly affects all of us, so it is very much part of our life experience - why wouldn't you want to engage with a force that directly affects you as much as this one does? If you can't be bothered, don't spout views.

I think that people who say "I couldnt be bothered" or "I don't have time" or "its boring" or "I won't have anything to do with them" lose something. They seem to want their cake and eat it - power without responsibility. 

>>Service levels are low

>>this is endemic in the public service

How low?  Try to avoid generic slurs.  Comparative evidence? You have said that service levels should be "high" - yep, we all want that, everywhere but how?

You think that the public service is not capable of high levels of service - this is a ConDem lie. They want everything done by the market.  More money should be spent you say, but what on earth makes you think throwing money at it will fix the problem?

Looks like you are out of your depth - the factors that pertain here are complex and need a lot of knowledge you don't possess.  And yet, you, with your experience dealing with planning officers in 5% of the borough, are not only sure of your view but want a change of government too? You say you have respect for the planning officers and "hold them in the highest regard" but do you?  Are you the right person to sort this?  Have you asked them what is wrong, why and what they are doing about it?  No, you havent.

Really, Adrian, come on, bow out - accept that treating complex issues this this way is why the Chief Exec gets the big bucks and change your attitude and approach. You sound like a reasonable bloke - please accept that problems like this cannot be solved using ordinary common sense and home-grown wisdom.  It isn't as blindingly obvious as it appears. Professionals have worked for years and years on this and you cant even tell, for instance, how good planning is here as opposed to Oz.

Presumably the dark motive is to get planning privatised then, like the ConDems are privatising the NHS? Maybe financed by a High-Street bank like HSBC, who had to pay £3bn in mis-selling fines in 2012 alone - is the private sector really run any better than Haringey Planning department? There really is £36bn in unpaid tax that could pay the welfare bill four times over yet remains uncollected. Why, we could spend some of it on planning!

Let me predict that Labour will not solve all of the problems planning have (they are working on it and say it has improved a lot) - the forces bearing down upon them are too great. The developers are rich, greedy and mostly evil. The govt have cut the budget to the bone and beyond for purely ideological reasons. There is enough money to help provide a better planning service but the Govt want all public services to fail so they can privatise them.  The Lib Dems here are busy failing to win by creating an atmosphere of failure, which depresses people even though they see through it.  

Of all the parties, Labour is the one most likely to defend our interests against that of the market. Labour is the one most on the side of public services. Not the Lib Dems, not the Tories.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on January 28, 2014 at 6:30

As a slight aside, I work for a local authority and we have a lot of people put huge amounts of effort to providing the best service they can. We also have some who don't. I'm sure that this is everyone's experience when dealing with any organisation, be it public or private sector. Also, a lot of the planners where I work are from Oz, NZ and South Africa (they have similar planning systems to the UK so their skills are transferable). I would imagine that the same is true for many London planning authorities.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on January 28, 2014 at 13:43

That is helpful, thanks.  So can you comment to "disgusted from Oz" above on any/all of these:

1) This is a problem that is likely to be significantly affected by changing the party that runs the Council. That there is something about the way that the Tories or the Lib Dems rule councils that means that these sorts of problems do not happen to them, or happen to a significantly reduced degree. Obviously, in a wealthy area it is less likely that these sorts of poverty-related planning issues will occur, so I am not asking you to say that such areas have better planning depts - you know what I mean.

2) If the planning officers are likely to be aware of the problem and likely to be able to significantly address the problem themselves? If so, is it the case that the profession itself, for instance, has a way forward and is pressing for non-party-political change?  In other words, the problems are or are not principally a result of political ideology.

3) If Haringey Planning were performing as well as could be expected given the planning laws and the political and economic climate, would there be much difference from the situation today?

4) Is this performance level specific to Haringey or, given the poverty here that depresses what can be achieved, is the fact that Haringey is not yet high in the league proof that Labour cannot run planning well enough or are other factors more significant?

Permalink Reply by Clive Carter on January 28, 2014 at 9:00

I like to include a little news in my posts:

In a move that will have gladdened the hearts of some of the  good-and-pure left-wing, on 16 January, the Ukrainian government passed anti-protest laws that banned many forms of demonstration.

It included provisions to punish the slandering of public officials.

In a move that will alarm some of the same, earlier this morning, the Ukraine PM resigned after learning of the President's intention – following public anger – to repeal the 12-day old, anti-demonstrator legislation.

This could even restore the ability to criticise public officials.

It's alarmed many Ukrainian MPs and could even shock some in Blighty.

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Permalink Reply by Chris Setz on January 27, 2014 at 20:54

>> if you don't vote, you shouldn't complain

What if only one person voted, on what basis would non-voters be able to complain?

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