Harringay, Haringey - So Good they Spelt it Twice!
How much does an ASBO cost?
Remember the nine young men moved on from Duckett's Common with the full force of the law? That didn't hurt too much did it? Possibly two of them ended up mugging people in the passage but other than that, all good. Right?
How much do we think that ASBO cost?
| Enquiry Agents/Couriers | £699 |
| Court Fees | £4,400 |
| Legal Costs | £41,665 |
| Counsel's fees | £28,735 |
Total cost: £75,499
To keep nine young men, two of them minors, away from a park. This was not asked for by a resident, this was done by someone in the council and approved by Nick Walkley.
The original discussion of this ASBO was here.
Tags for Forum Posts: asbo
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Seema Chandwani on
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Hi Malcolm
Although I don't use wikipedia as a source, there were a few nuggets in there:
"Research has shown that increasing the severity of a punishment does not have much effect on crime"
Couldn't find the part about swift punishment and if I missed it, it was not in the context of Child Development.
Thanks.
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Permalink Reply by Finsbury Park Ranger on
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I didn't say severity I said 'the fear of punishment' which involves a complex dynamic of chance of failure plus severity of punishment if caught. It is this simple equation that is the single biggest factor when trying to decrease most crime levels.
Anyone arguing otherwise shouldn't be anywhere near the decisions making process when it comes to cutting crime in the local area if you ask me.
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LOL!
But the actual link you gave me said the opposite to what you are saying...!
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I didn't give you a link but could happily pull many, many links about how certainty and severity of punishment effects crime levels.
So many it would get boring. -
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Permalink Reply by Michael Anderson on
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I think there are two distinct issues here. ASBOs as a way of dealing with criminality/disturbance involving younger people is perhaps questionable and as Seema has said, dealing with the root cause is probably more effective but I would imagine more complex and more expensive. Also, I do wonder if the younger people who end up with ASBOs would be the ones who would actually use youth facilities. I find it hard to see a 15 year old who is caught up in dealing, drinking or mugging finding the prospect of an evening of ping-pong of the slightest interest. But not all ASBOs are served on people this young and youth services will have no impact on their behaviour at all.
The home office stats for absos served in England and Wales in 2012 are
Up to age 17 - 8,433
18 and over - 14,335 (and of these 10,763 were 21 or older)
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Permalink Reply by John McMullan on
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Well if they all cost what ours cost that's £189,733,333 in legal fees on ASBOs. That's a lot of youth centres and EMA. These are not good value for money. EMA was amazing value for money.
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Permalink Reply by Alan Stanton on
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Michael, I didn't read Seema as suggesting youth services as a universal solution.
But let's start by giving credit to John McMullan for finding and publishing the costs of one "successful" ASBO. I didn't know these figures. Which as a councillor I find personally embarrassing. In fact I don't even know whether or not such figures are reported to councillors. (Perhaps they are - buried in an appendix in a report?)
But what I do know is that on the Council's website if you search for "ASBO" you'll find the Council's PR team putting out stories about successful ASBOs. As if this was always and inevitably a positive outcome and solution to problems.
Like you I have doubts about ASBOS as a method. This probably stems from my own legal training - way back in the dim mists of time - when I learned that criminal offences had to be specifically and rigorously defined. Not just to answer an exam question, but because, as citizens we need to know when and what conduct is regulated or prohibited. Vague laws undermine everyone's rights.
I agree with you that dealing with root causes is likely to be complex. Whether or not it's more expensive depends on whether intervention succeeds; and what you include in the costs if it doesn't. There are partly unknown but still very real future costs: to victims; to the families of people who commit crimes; and to the criminals - damaged lives in each case.
Police are expensive. So are lawyers and courts. And prisons are big business. Are those the jobs and enterprises we want to see expanded? ... in the US, Prisons Are Big Business.
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Thanks Michael. This statement interests me "ASBOs as a way of dealing with criminality" - actually, no it's not. In the UK we have criminal proceedings to deal with criminality which do not involve the council deciding, adminstering and paying.
If these young people were up to criminal activity, as has been suggested around drugs, muggings, carrying weapons, then they should've been arrested, charged and faced with evidence in front of a judge and jury - that's our criminal proceedings in the UK,
An ASBO is to deal with Anti Social Behaviour, i.e. noise, drinking, urinating in public. According to my observation, this has been by the adults in the park - who are still there and have no ASBO.
When an ASBO becomes criminal is when it is breeched. So the charge is, they breeched ASBO conditions and get a sentence (custodial or community) but not a charge on the reason they got the ASBO.
Just to use your stats:
12,005 were over 10 - under 21's | 10,763 were 21 or older - so 60%/40%. This to me is disproportionate.
The average age (by my observation) of the drinkers, sleepers in the park: 35. Number of Over 21's who got an ASBO - 0. Number of people who were arrested for criminal activity - 0.
- Level of council investment in youth service activity in the 0.5m radius of Ducketts Common in from Feb 2012 when the concerns were first reported to date: - £0
- Level of council investment in youth service activity in the 0.5m radius of Ducketts Common in 2013 when discussions to issue an expensive ASBO were being had: - £0
An ASBO given the costs should always be the last resort and always be for anti social behaviour not crimes.
As for the statement "evening of ping pong" - 99% of young people do not engage in criminal activity or will never be involved in altercations with the law. However about 1% will be at any one time, this is proven statistics. I don't believe these 9 young men were drug dealing or mugging people when they were in nursery, I do believe that this behaviour was nurtured.
Young people are at that age where they are forming their identity and shaping what type of adult they would be. Many do so without parental guidance as their parents are working, the concept of extended families no longer exists and/or there has been a family breakdown. There is no class issue here, even some kids from the wealthest backgrounds have parents who have neglected to parent them and the use of drugs, suicide, depression, self harming etc so it is just as high in your middle classes. So youth centres are not and cannot be exclusively for those who are visibily 'misbehaving'.
Providing a safe place for young people to go, where they can explore these issues under the supervision of trained adults is healthy for our children and our society.
In regards to whether young people would find this interesting, yes they do, not because of the "ping pong" but it's the only place they feel wanted, welcomed, not judged, able to ask questions, be given a sense of responsibility, be treated like equals and adults. The 'ping pong' is secondary to that and is actually what they choose to put on the timetable as in a good run youth centre, young people make the decision of the activities they want to have.
The youth workers role is to grab that activity and use it to teach young people about discipline, morals, boundaries and acceptable behaviour. For example, getting boys to team up with girls on table tennis to challenge gender stereotypes. Ensuring those with physical disabilities are made to feel involved in the same activity not segregated. It's also about nurturing a talent, whether that be sports, arts, politics, catering, business and giving them a platform to develop that.
Of course there are more direct issues, when kids come in beaten up by their parents (or in some cases with girls as young as 14 by boyfriends or older men prostituting them) - where else would they choose to go to get help? There are issues of sexual health, drugs awareness, pregnancy, respectful relationships etc we have to educate young people about. Research at the moment is suggesting misogyny amongst young men is rising and disturbingly amongst young women who are shaping their identities around the sexualisation they see on TV and in magazines (in fact everywhere) to the point they accept sexual violence in relationships is ok. It is the role of youth work to challenge that using a variety of tools from drama, debates, video making, sports, poetry, art etc.
In my 16 years I have seen some horrible things being done to young people by the adult world, I have also seen nasty things young people have done to each other and giving first aid to a young man who had just been shot is something that has stayed with me. In fact I really glad they changed the road layout of where it happened, paving over it on West Green Road as I can walk around there without having flashbacks.
But I've also seen more beautiful things, like how protective so called 'gang boys' are over young people in youth clubs who have disabilities and how they helped staff feed them, get them in and out of the minibus and walk/push them to their doors. I've seen kids who everyone gave up on now achieve highly in university, work or sports and that pleasure you get when even now they're in their 20s they text to tell you to watch BBC1 as their race is on TV.
Of course I'm not claiming it works for every kid, but it works for a lot and research by many universities, government departments and institutions have placed high value on youth provision as a long term strategy, especially after the riots.
If it means we invest in that as an option to give kids a chance, that is what I will always advocate for. ASBOing young people out of an area with no support or attention to the causes of their behaviour is a waste of money and the act of an uncivilised society. And at £75,499 per 9 young people it is also in my opinion - insane!
As for the interest of 'ping pong' - I'll leave one of my former young people to explain that here
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Seema, I admit I was being flippant. But there is a serious question here I think. Do youth services in the traditional model (youth centres etc) actually help young people not go down the path that leads to this kind of behaviour? I think that the money is better spent, targeted at those families whose problems are complex and whose lives are chaotic. I really do not see how the intervention of the traditional youth service model can possibly alter the behaviour of some young people whose lives began in chaos at birth and see no route out, as youth services focus on them and not their families. An asbo is an admission of defeat in these cases but although it is a sticking plaster, it is a way to contain the behaviour of a tiny minority of people who cause problems for a lot of other people.
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Hi Michael.
It's ok... I've had worse :) Truth be known, I thrive off discussions like this and am enjoying the attention and interest you are showing. Oddly, your challenging is keeping me distracted from being Anti-Social, maybe youth work could be a career path for you soon!? ;)
If you would indulge me for a bit longer...
- In order to be referred for targetted support, the child/family/adult would need to have their needs known. By the time they hit that radar, its often too far gone.
- To get access to the support you will need to be pre-judged and that already leads to resistance from many. There is a branding issue with targetted services by the virtue of the way they are set up. The Tories have a programme called 'Troubled Families', I'm not sure what message that sends. Bit like going on a date with a guy and him telling you he has had enough of good looking girls so thought he'd give me a try... Gee, thanks!
- A lot of families figure out what it is they've 'done' to be 'punished' when a social worker starts meddling' into their lives and spend the whole relationship convincing the worker that they've overcome that problem. An appointment once every 2 weeks for an hour is hard to judge.
Im not knocking these professions, just pointing out some defaults with their approach and probably why I haven't become one.
As these are targetted services, they are heavily monitored on targets. So the approach becomes systems focused not client focused.
For example when I worked as a caseworker for a gov project aimed at reducing youth unemployment. Getting the child into college or training was the target. Them dropping out a few weeks later due to a drug problem which was not my target was irrelevant to the target but very relevant to the client. I was not measured on removing their drug addiction.
Of course you had managers that understood that, but they also had performance indicators and a backlog of cases to allocate. So there was a professional conflict.
Youth work acts very differently, it is open to all so removes that stigma and those confined targets. Although there is an element of targetting, its done very subtly, so in this case youth workers deployed to Ducketts Common because of these 9 young people and 'happen to meet these 9 young men by chance', they are not treated any differently in attitude as a child on their way to oxford uni.
So, my response to you is, yes you are right money is better spent on giving support to people who need it. But sending these 9 young men a letter with social services would probably be as effective as calling them asking if they would like to catch headlice!
On assessing your posts, you seem to assuming youth work is solely activities and distraction. But actually it's exactly what you're calling for, just using a more effective way of engaging them and getting their buy in from the start. And not calling young people into an office for a one hour appointment, sometimes with a safety glass between the worker and young person and then expecting them to effectively respond to that.
Young people are human too, they have the same psychology.
Getting a young person into a youth centre or getting them to speak to you in a park/estate/outside a betting shop in a geniune relationship will raise the chances of the support that comes afterwards to be more accepted and effective.
Apart from the engagement, all other formats of support is similar to what you are asking for. Youth workers are multi trained to tackle a wide spectrum of behavioural issues, drugs, alcohol, sexual health, self esteem, welfare benefits, housing etc. If they lack, they normally have the ability to call in support or refer outwards but with them (i.e. a youth worker will go with a kid to Apex House or call in a Housing Advice worker).
But their issues are not solely solved by 'getting help', it's also about learning which helps in itself. So, sports which teach discipline and team work, volunteering which gives them a sense of community and work skills etc.
Again, we need to not just focus on these 9 young men who you feel "cause problems for a lot of other people", there are many thousands of young people in Haringey not so visible but could end up being young parents, drug addicts (inc alcohol), unemployed, violent. And also many thousands of young people who achieve highly but lack social skills, employment skills, public speaking skills, assertiveness and this will hold them back in later life.
If you wait for them to get to the stage of these 9 young men, you'll always be playing catch up and for residents like you and I, we'll be constantly wondering why nothing is being done as new generations of young people grow.
Even if 5% of young people are at risk of being the "cause problems for a lot of other people", thats 1,000 of them and you can't ASBO all of them. You may ASBO 'your lot' off your street and they'll move to mine. Meanwhile, I'll ASBO my lot off my street and they'll move to yours.
There is a high likelihood they'll breach, end up in the criminal justice system, maybe progress to prison and will become a bigger risk for residents.
You are right youth work begins with the young person, but not right that it stops there. Working with parents is a normal part of a youth work relationship and pivotal to offering holistic support to the child. However, it is a child centred profession, which means the adults do not join forces against the child. i.e. the conversation will never start "I spoke to your mum and she told me you..."
Most of these young people have had 'workers' in their lives, they've adopted a culture to resist based on the above points and just shut it down. That is even if they are asked.
I shadowed some Educational Welfare Officers once on a home visit and the mum was shouting at the son for bunking, the EWO was there saying 'your mum is right, your mum is right' every 2 minutes and then said, in front of the mum 'you can tell me now why you don't attend'.... and before he could answer his mum carried on 'he is a stupid child, I wish I never gave birth to you..." and then the EWO adds "can you see how much you are upsetting your mum". I thought I was on a hidden camera show!
I hope this helps. I appreciate I am being very specific and technical. I disagree with you fundamentally that ASBOs have any value for young people. They are a gimmick and I think they should be scrapped before they create anymore problems and we should start looking at real solutions not soundbites and press releases.
I am glad after years of campaigning, the council have now switched from 80% casework/20% prevention to now 80% prevention (including street based youth workers in parks & estates)/20% casework in their recently devised youth strategy. Let the real solutions to young people commence.
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On the topic of scientific evidence, I was reminded of the documentary film Juvenile Liaison 1 (1975) made by Nick Broomfield and Joan Churchill. It's about a scheme as run by Police in Blackburn. (The link takes you to the film on YouTube.)
At the time the film came out I was social worker. A group of us invited Nick and Joan to come and show the film and talk to us. I'm very glad that Joan did. It made many of us think hard about how we worked with young offenders - and with the police.
____________________________Can I urge people to read and reread Seema Chandwani's informed and thoughtful comments on this thread. Even if you don't agree with her, please give them some serious reflection.
Incidentally, the poisonous ignoramuses who together worked to prevent her standing as a Labour candidate in Haringey deserve neither the trust nor the respect of residents. Nor a single vote.
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Permalink Reply by Cllr Emina Ibrahim on
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Hi
The cost is also impacted by whether the ASBO's are bolt-ons (so ancillary orders to criminal convictions) or standalones. Standalone ASBO's are extremely costly because of the evidence gathering process, liason with different departments to build a case etc - legal costs that are incurred and the separate court costs because there is no criminal case to "bolt on" to.
The issues in Ducketts Common have been ongoing for a while however.
Emine Ibrahim
Labour Party Candidate (Harringay Ward)
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